New refrigerator trips AFCI

[Mdsparky]

I have a customer with a new refrigerator on a Seimens Dual Function breaker .. it tripped after a fee seconds of running .. Reset trip . Reset, same runs a little trip . He called I told him try another kit counter circuit .. Same result . Tried another . Same result . He then plugged it into a GFCI only protected receptacle and it held . Anyone got any ideas .. I'm in Massachusetts and AFCI is required for all 120 v outlets in a dwelling. This technology is problematic to say the least . Any thoughts or info would be appreciated. Thanks

 

[ptonsparky]

New house with new fridge?
Do they work with other loads?
Do the AFCI have on board diagnostics? I would venture to guess almost all of the newer ones do.

 

[ptonsparky]

Ok, I see your comment on another thread.
You will need to look for all the standard suggestions. No shared neutrals. Are the correct neutrals landed on the correct CB?
Look at the diagnostics.

 

[Mdsparky]

Thanks . Yes all brand new the only thing plugged in on all three circuit breakers was the refrigerator. It is all brand spanking new as in the first time it was turned on. The refrigerator has only one other outlet. A yet to be installed island receptacle.

 

[Mdsparky]

I'm told both lights were on .

 

[ptonsparky]

Try looking at the flow chart on the 2nd page.

https://www.downloads.siemens.com/download-center/Download.aspx?pos=download&fct=getasset&id1=BTLV_40705

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Some refrigerators, like some AC units, have VFDs and in some cases the VFDs and GFCIs and/or AFCIs do not play nice together.

 

[mbrooke]

I know folks aren't going to agree with this, but it needs to be said. The only way that fridge will work uninterrupted is without any type of AFCI or GFCI. The fridge is not subjected to conditions likely to compromise the EGC and in a typical run the thermal magnetic breaker will provide arc fault protection for the whole run going down to the fridge's cord.

 

[ptonsparky]

I know folks aren't going to agree with this, but it needs to be said. The only way that fridge will work uninterrupted is without any type of AFCI or GFCI. The fridge is not subjected to conditions likely to compromise the EGC and in a typical run the thermal magnetic breaker will provide arc fault protection for the whole run going down to the fridge's cord.

Most worked just fine without the EG and a penny behind the fuse.

AFCI & GFCI are in the hand we’ve been dealt. Get the rules changed or learn to play the game with what you have.

 

[tortuga]

He called I told him try another kit counter circuit .. Same result . Tried another . Same result . He then plugged it into a GFCI only protected receptacle and it held .

So the new homeowner is troubbleshooting, I would go look at it personally somthing might jump out at you that a novice will easily miss.
Are you the electrician that wired the new house?
Whats the make and model of the fridge?

Any thoughts or info would be appreciated. Thanks

Last fridge I troubleshooted like this was a freezer actually and I simply used a 2-3prong adapter and measured from the frame to a known good EGC and had occasional ~60 volt pulse on the frame of the unit, it was simply defective.
I'd say keep it on the GFCI only receptacle for a while longer and see if it trips the GFCI.
and make sure the unfinished island wiring is well insulated / secured, follow the other troubleshooting guidance.

 

[mbrooke]

Most worked just fine without the EG and a penny behind the fuse.

AFCI & GFCI are in the hand we’ve been dealt. Get the rules changed or learn to play the game with what you have.

A penny doesn't provide AFCI or GFCI protection. Hence why we mandated EGCs and went to breakers to deter bypassing protection.

Who says you have to play any game?

 

[tortuga]

Who says you have to play any game

Mbrook; Mdsparky is a licensed electrician in the great state of Massachusetts, in order to legally work in mass he needs to 'play by their rules'. His mission is to get the fridge to work with the AFCI.
Expressing opinions as to what your going to do as our official MHCF CMP member does not help Mdsparky get his mission done.

 

[mbrooke]

Mbrook; Mdsparky is a licensed electrician in the great state of Massachusetts, in order to legally work in mass he needs to 'play by their rules'. His mission is to get the fridge to work with the AFCI.
Expressing opinions as to what your going to do as our official MHCF CMP member does not help Mdsparky get his mission done.

Physics does not care about opinions.

Honestly, if every single electrician refused to comply, then every single electrician, contractor and customer will finally be taken seriously.

That is the only way democracy and human rights can be preserved. Following malfeasant orders is not one of them.

 

[ptonsparky]

Physics does not care about opinions.

Honestly, if every single electrician refused to comply, then every single electrician, contractor and customer will finally be taken seriously.

That is the only way democracy and human rights can be preserved. Following malfeasant orders is not one of them.

That won’t help the OP today…or tomorrow.
Unfortunately we must go through all the steps to find to eliminate possible causes. PIA that it may be.

 

[mbrooke]

That won’t help the OP today…or tomorrow.
Unfortunately we must go through all the steps to find to eliminate possible causes. PIA that it may be.

It may not be possible to get the fridge to run on a listed AFCI.

Reason for my concern is that food poisoning would be a greater risk to human life than what is provided with redundant protection at best.

 

[ptonsparky]

It may not be possible to get the fridge to run on a listed AFCI.

Reason for my concern is that food poisoning would be a greater risk to human life than what is provided with redundant protection at best.

It may not, but everything else must be eliminated, then he can tell the customer to go buy a fridge that will.

 

[mbrooke]

It may not, but everything else must be eliminated, then he can tell the customer to go buy a fridge that will.

And how is that fair to the customer? Especially when the new fridge may hold on the AFCI, but chance be trip the GFCI?

Those on the CMP seats voting on new rules do not understand basic electrical theory and neither those adopting the NEC into law. However, the electrician on the other hand does know theory and also has the resources to back him and that theory up.

At minimum I would write to the AHJ if that job is being inspected.

 

[Fred B]

I've been told (but not sure) that 210.12(A)(5) was interpreted that if no other outlets provided and using MC (or other wireing method herein listed) and is continuous from panel to the dedicated outlet, no AFCI was required. Because the wording was to provide upstream to the next outlet protection by a listed AFCI device, and a dedicated outlet was providing no other outlets. Is this true? Could it be a viable workaround to neusence tipping items? What have others heard?

 

[ptonsparky]

I've been told (but not sure) that 210.12(A)(5) was interpreted that if no other outlets provided and using MC (or other wireing method herein listed) and is continuous from panel to the dedicated outlet, no AFCI was required. Because the wording was to provide upstream to the next outlet protection by a listed AFCI device, and a dedicated outlet was providing no other outlets. Is this true? Could it be a viable workaround to neusence tipping items? What have others heard?

…shall be permitted to install a listed outlet branch-circuit-type AFCI at the first outlet..

AFCI protection of the branch circuit is still required, just not that portion in the raceways listed.
Fuse panel to the first outlet in conduit, then AFCI. We put them next to the fuse panel then NM from there to wherever.

 

[mbrooke]

…shall be permitted to install a listed outlet branch-circuit-type AFCI at the first outlet..

AFCI protection of the branch circuit is still required, just not that portion in the raceways listed.
Fuse panel to the first outlet in conduit, then AFCI. We put them next to the fuse panel then NM from there to wherever.

It is required in that portion, just accomplished via a thermal magnetic breaker instead of an AFCI.

I keep trying to get this point across in the forum. A standard thermal magnetic breaker IS an AFCI.

https://imgur.com/a/xQ0Mq2H