EMFs and amps on water pipe

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EGH

Member
Location
Montgomery County PA
Occupation
Landlord
Hi, since I'm new, and this post will be screened (per the posting guidelines which I did read) I might not see your replies till I log on, but if you do, thank you.

We have a tenant with EHS (electromagnetic hypersensitivity syndrome. And I'm looking for ways to reduce EMFs.

Our electrician "replaced 200 amp service cable, meter socket and update grounding system" and thought this would reduce the EMFs but it hasn't. So, after this service was completed and sticker was placed tenant was still getting shocked at the kitchen sink and still reads high EMFs on the floor and walls.

Another electrical company inspected for ways to reduce EMFs and they found:
1. "Up to 1.3 amps of current was found flowing on water pipe GEC even with main breaker off suggesting a possible issue with the service neutral conductor or wiring fault. This type of current imbalance is known to cause elevated magnetic fields."
2. Some lights receive power even with main off. Therefore, there are circuits that appear to be inter-connected possibly between the two corresponding panels. This condition can lead to elevated magnetic fields."

The water company had to replace the water meter and that happened to be after the service work was done. I was reading through this post from 2008 to help with the amp on water pipe:

https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/amps-in-the-cold-water-pipe.52016/ which made me think about the water meter maybe being the culprit for the water pipe.

I thought the service work would have corrected any issue with the service neutral conductor, and I thought the water meter would help with the shock (it might have, I don't know yet). I just don't know how to reduce the EMFs.

Any thoughts on the 1.3 amps current -- is that 'high'? (I don't know if it was amps or milliamps, sorry.)
Any experience with reducing EMFs??

Thank you so much!!
 
ptonsparky

ptonsparky

Tom
Location
NE (9.06 miles @5.9 Degrees from Winged Horses)
Occupation
EC - retired
1.3 amps is not high for most situations. It may be for your customer. Amps or milliamps makes a hell of a lot of difference. Most electricians would not be able to measure the lower.

Dose this customer share a common metallic piping system with the neighbors? Dig up the waterline and replace the section coming into the house with nonmetallic.

Getting shocked is not what I would consider EMF.

Lights staying on and 'two panels' flags an issue with improper wiring. Find a different electrician. IDC if it passed inspection or not.
 
romex jockey

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician
EGH said:
electromagnetic hypersensitivity syndrome
Click to expand...
hadda lookit up>
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Electromagnetic hypersensitivity (EHS, microwave syndrome) - Review of mechanisms - PubMed

Electromagnetic hypersensitivity (EHS), known in the past as "Microwave syndrome", is a clinical syndrome characterized by the presence of a wide spectrum of non-specific multiple organ symptoms, typically including central nervous system symptoms, that occur following the patient's acute or...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

~RJ~
 
don_resqcapt19

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
EGH said:
Hi, since I'm new, and this post will be screened (per the posting guidelines which I did read) I might not see your replies till I log on, but if you do, thank you.

We have a tenant with EHS (electromagnetic hypersensitivity syndrome. And I'm looking for ways to reduce EMFs.

Our electrician "replaced 200 amp service cable, meter socket and update grounding system" and thought this would reduce the EMFs but it hasn't. So, after this service was completed and sticker was placed tenant was still getting shocked at the kitchen sink and still reads high EMFs on the floor and walls.

Another electrical company inspected for ways to reduce EMFs and they found:
1. "Up to 1.3 amps of current was found flowing on water pipe GEC even with main breaker off suggesting a possible issue with the service neutral conductor or wiring fault. This type of current imbalance is known to cause elevated magnetic fields."
2. Some lights receive power even with main off. Therefore, there are circuits that appear to be inter-connected possibly between the two corresponding panels. This condition can lead to elevated magnetic fields."

The water company had to replace the water meter and that happened to be after the service work was done. I was reading through this post from 2008 to help with the amp on water pipe:

https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/amps-in-the-cold-water-pipe.52016/ which made me think about the water meter maybe being the culprit for the water pipe.

I thought the service work would have corrected any issue with the service neutral conductor, and I thought the water meter would help with the shock (it might have, I don't know yet). I just don't know how to reduce the EMFs.

Any thoughts on the 1.3 amps current -- is that 'high'? (I don't know if it was amps or milliamps, sorry.)
Any experience with reducing EMFs??

Thank you so much!!
Click to expand...
There is an actual electrical problem in the dwelling unit any time some one is getting shocked. That may cause elevated EMF in the area. The source of voltage causing the shock must be located and eliminated.

As far as current on the metal underground water piping grounding electrode connection. This is 100% normal as the metal underground water piping is a physical parallel path for neutral current. Each service in the area is bonded to that common underground metal water piping system and this parallel path is a current divider. It is not uncommon for 20% or more of the neutral current to flow on the water piping system.
There will often be current on the water pipe grounding electrode even where the service to that building is turned off at the service disconnect that there is still a parallel path for the neutral current from the other services in the area via the water piping system, the grounding electrode conductors and the main bonding jumpers.
This path is a source of EMF, and about the only way to eliminate it is to discontinue using the metal underground water pipe as a grounding electrode. To do so would result in a code violation as you are required to use the metal underground water piping system as a grounding electrode if is present. You can minimize the current flow by installing a section of non-metallic water piping underground to break the physical connection to the rest of the metal underground water piping system in the area.
 
E

EGH

Member
Location
Montgomery County PA
Occupation
Landlord
don_resqcapt19 said:
There is an actual electrical problem in the dwelling unit any time some one is getting shocked. That may cause elevated EMF in the area. The source of voltage causing the shock must be located and eliminated.

As far as current on the metal underground water piping grounding electrode connection. This is 100% normal as the metal underground water piping is a physical parallel path for neutral current. Each service in the area is bonded to that common underground metal water piping system and this parallel path is a current divider. It is not uncommon for 20% or more of the neutral current to flow on the water piping system.
There will often be current on the water pipe grounding electrode even where the service to that building is turned off at the service disconnect that there is still a parallel path for the neutral current from the other services in the area via the water piping system, the grounding electrode conductors and the main bonding jumpers.
This path is a source of EMF, and about the only way to eliminate it is to discontinue using the metal underground water pipe as a grounding electrode. To do so would result in a code violation as you are required to use the metal underground water piping system as a grounding electrode if is present. You can minimize the current flow by installing a section of non-metallic water piping underground to break the physical connection to the rest of the metal underground water piping system in the area.
Click to expand...
Don, that's what my Contractor said might be an option, and installing that non-metallic section would keep in line with code, yet would still require digging up a piece of the underground piping. Any thoughts on how to do that efficiently? And, THANKS!
 
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suemarkp

Senior Member
Location
Kent, WA
Occupation
Retired Engineer
It could also help to know more about the building. Is this a single family home, a duplex, or a multi tenant building? When was the building built and most of the wiring installed?

Do other people get shocked at that sink, or just this one tenant? Is there a garbage disposal in that sink? It should be easy to measure a voltage at the sink if it is capable of shocking someone (even if they have wet hands). If something connected to the sink plumbing isn't faulted, it could just be elevated voltage on the water pipes. Current on the water pipes can be normal, but the voltage needs to be low or else there is a pipe bonding issue or a bad neutral issue.

Don mentioned the most common parallel path -- metal water piping systems. But you can also have them via CATV cables and phone lines. Putting a plastic segment in a water pipe is easy, but that doesn't work as well for CATV and phone. There are fiber-optic converters, but it is better to fix the underlying wiring issues if you can.

If there is a loose neutral, it could still be between the power company transformer and the meter -- the electrician most likely didn't change that and may be under the purview of the utility company to change if it has a problem. If this is a multi tenant building, it could be one of the other tenants or if there are multiple services feeding the building or an adjacent building. The water pipes may be all connected between these units, so all it takes is one bad unit to put current on the piping (especially if you are between the bad unit and where the water pipe leaves the building to go to the street.

Electricity doesn't take the path of least resistance - it takes all paths. So if something is using the water line as its return path, current will flow on each water pipe segment that has a connection to the utility neutral. The amount of current decreases as the resistance of the path increases, but there will still be current flowing.
 
don_resqcapt19

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
EGH said:
Don, that's what my Contractor said might be an option, and installing that non-metallic section would keep in line with code, yet would still require digging up a piece of the underground piping. Any thoughts on how to do that efficiently? And, THANKS!
Click to expand...
There is no easy way....have to have the water shut off at the street side valve and then dig up the pipe and put in non-metallic.
Note that you would have to check the local plumbing codes first. Up until a couple of years ago, our local plumbing code required copper water service pipes and there was no provision for a non-metallic section in it. I am sure there are other local plumbing codes that also require metallic water service lines.
 
E

EGH

Member
Location
Montgomery County PA
Occupation
Landlord
Wow! I feel so cared for! It is just this tenant on 2nd floor of duplex with no disposal CATV or fiber, possibly phone lines. I'll add the check between transformer & meter, great point and have electrician measure voltage at sink. A puzzle without all the pieces . . . .
 
J

jtee1249

Member
Location
Chicago
Occupation
Engineer
I hate to stir the pot here but this stuff is just about completely unfounded in science and is almost certainly a placebo effect.

I know your tenant probably doesn't want to hear that but I would hate for you to spend all this time and money being nice for it ultimately not to matter. The human body cannot detect electromagnetic radiation. There are a couple sketchy papers out their that claim elsewise but I would leave it for the researchers to discuss. IMO its very improbable. To not be an ass I would suggest doing things that would give the perception of "shielding" to see if it helps. You could put some wire mesh around "probable areas" that would act as a barrier. If they ask tell them about faraday cages.

But yea if they are getting shocked by the water lines definitely get that fixed lol.
 
E

EGH

Member
Location
Montgomery County PA
Occupation
Landlord
jtee1249 said:
I hate to stir the pot here but this stuff is just about completely unfounded in science and is almost certainly a placebo effect.

I know your tenant probably doesn't want to hear that but I would hate for you to spend all this time and money being nice for it ultimately not to matter. The human body cannot detect electromagnetic radiation. There are a couple sketchy papers out their that claim elsewise but I would leave it for the researchers to discuss. IMO its very improbable. To not be an ass I would suggest doing things that would give the perception of "shielding" to see if it helps. You could put some wire mesh around "probable areas" that would act as a barrier. If they ask tell them about faraday cages.

But yea if they are getting shocked by the water lines definitely get that fixed lol.
Click to expand...
Oh, wow! I will definitely share that info, never heard of that. Thank you SO much!!!
 
hbiss

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
Location
Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
Occupation
EC
jtee1249 said:
I hate to stir the pot here but this stuff is just about completely unfounded in science and is almost certainly a placebo effect.
Click to expand...

I was wondering when somebody would say that. Would have figured it would be the first reply!

So you rent to this guy who claims to have some kind of "EMF syndrome" which is aggravated by your building so you go out and spend hundreds of dollars on all kinds of electrical and plumbing changes trying to satisfy him and nothing has worked yet.

I'm trying to figure out who is the bigger crazy, him or you.

Have YOU actually confirmed getting a shock "at the kitchen sink"? ("At the kitchen sink" says absolutely nothing as to how or why he is allegedly getting a shock.) Has any tenant before him complained about it? It very well may just be static electricity, ever question him to determine if that is the case? As far as EMF syndrome, what proof do you have it's even real or his imagination?

You can keep spending money on this or just say enough. You are going to have to learn to deal with these whack jobs. Offer to let him out of the lease so he can bother someone else.

-Hal
 
romex jockey

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician
jtee1249 said:
To not be an ass I would suggest doing things that would give the perception of "shielding" to see if it helps. You could put some wire mesh around "probable areas" that would act as a barrier. If they ask tell them about faraday cages.
Click to expand...
it's actually become an industry>>>

Hydrogen Water - Drink To Your Health - Synergy Science

Studies Show Hydrogen Gas Dissolved in Water Is a Health Breakthrough. Synergy Science Lets you Create Hydrogen Water At Home
www.synergyscience.com www.synergyscience.com
~RJ~
 
infinity

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
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Journeyman Electrician
hbiss said:
I was wondering when somebody would say that. Would have figured it would be the first reply!

So you rent to this guy who claims to have some kind of "EMF syndrome" which is aggravated by your building so you go out and spend hundreds of dollars on all kinds of electrical and plumbing changes trying to satisfy him and nothing has worked yet.

I'm trying to figure out who is the bigger crazy, him or you.

Have YOU actually confirmed getting a shock "at the kitchen sink"? ("At the kitchen sink" says absolutely nothing as to how or why he is allegedly getting a shock.) Has any tenant before him complained about it? It very well may just be static electricity, ever question him to determine if that is the case? As far as EMF syndrome, what proof do you have it's even real or his imagination?

You can keep spending money on this or just say enough. You are going to have to learn to deal with these whack jobs. Offer to let him out of the lease so he can bother someone else.

-Hal
Click to expand...
IMO this so called syndrome is actual nonsense. I'm sure someone will post a link or a video which purports that it actually exists but I'm not buying it. YouTube is full of garbage and misinformation on this subject that is backed by nothing other than imagination.

Now being shocked by a sink is a different thing. As Hal asked has this even been confirmed by some sort of professional testing?
 
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