"All Electric" Home with Instant Hot

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augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
Anyon feel like playing with some numbers ?
I don't have exact data such as compressor nameplate so any answer will include assumptions.
I have never been comfortable with the "optional" method but, in playing with it, surprisingly a 400 amp service seems to fit the bill using Mike's
"optional calculation sheet".
Rough figures: 3500 sq ft home, 12kw range, "standard" small appliances (micro, d/w, hood, etc.) TWO Instant water heaters 150 amp each (4 =40 amp ckts each),'\
two heat pumps, one with 10kw heat, one with 15kw; no exact nameplate data on compressors but a 50 amp and 30 amp circuit. HVAC tech advises compressor can run simultaneously with the heat.
Is a 400 amp service adequate ??
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
Will they be putting the on demand water heaters in series? Or will it be two separate systems? When I did the showers at a gym, we had four 18 KW units in series. After installing, I checked the loads, and found that only two were running at full flow, while the other two idled. Six showers total running.
 

brantmacga

Señor Member
Location
Georgia
Occupation
Former Child
Me and my Friday afternoon cocktail came up with 335A

a7b58a90f8e760f67cc0840bf5c8f273.jpg



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
Me and my Friday afternoon cocktail came up with 335A

a7b58a90f8e760f67cc0840bf5c8f273.jpg



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thanks. That's in line with my number but it comparing those numbers to the "Standard Method" number made me a bit leery.
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
Most times I find the standard method is way overkill!
I agree. This one worried me a bit as I've had little experience with instant-hot and even though the optional method has a liberal demand factor, 300 amps of water heating on a 400 amp service raised concern.
 

Hv&Lv

Senior Member
Location
-
Occupation
Engineer/Technician
If it's not too late, the HO would be much better off and happy with a gas tankless. The water temp would be more consistent and the electric bill would be much lower. I've never encountered anyone that was happy with an electric tankless.
Agreed. Tried to talk my sister out of one, but she insisted..
Hates it and the accompanying electric bill.
Now she wants to go with another tank style water heater.
 

Tulsa Electrician

Senior Member
Location
Tulsa
Occupation
Electrician
Well its Saturday and I decided to play with info having coffee.
Kinda of fun to do. I decide to use info and layout for other to follow based on the example in the back of the book. I'm going to use this for a job talk next week if that's OK with you guys.
Have to admit at first glance I was like WHAT. Then I ran the numbers and started reading. As you dig a little deeper into the calcs and feeder and service conductor calculations its kinda fun finding related code sections to the Optional Method.
Any way a pic to share.
Would love to see a panel(s) load break down when finished. Single 400 or 2-200's. with a 400 amp (320 meter enclosure),If that is what you use.
 

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augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
Thanks for the input (both here any via IM). The input confirmed by numbers and the fact that it appears to be one of those situations where a 400 amp service would meet the NEC requirement thanks to the optional method but seemingly doing so would be ill advised in most folks opinion.
My original calculations indicated the 400 amp could meet NEC but I felt I was overlooking something.
(The contractor who asked my input is going to install a 600 amp....he had previous installed (2) 200 amp panels before the homeowner changed to instant-heat)
 

brantmacga

Señor Member
Location
Georgia
Occupation
Former Child
Well its Saturday and I decided to play with info having coffee.
Kinda of fun to do. I decide to use info and layout for other to follow based on the example in the back of the book. I'm going to use this for a job talk next week if that's OK with you guys.
Have to admit at first glance I was like WHAT. Then I ran the numbers and started reading. As you dig a little deeper into the calcs and feeder and service conductor calculations its kinda fun finding related code sections to the Optional Method.
Any way a pic to share.
Would love to see a panel(s) load break down when finished. Single 400 or 2-200's. with a 400 amp (320 meter enclosure),If that is what you use.

I calculated what I assumed the MCA on those heat pumps would be, not MOCP.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Hv&Lv

Senior Member
Location
-
Occupation
Engineer/Technician
I calculated what I assumed the MCA on those heat pumps would be, not MOCP.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
refresher here..
Wouldnt the MCA be better to use since it’s already got the 1.25 multiplier in there?
I looked at the picture and wondered why Augie used the OCPD value.
I thought max OCPD had nothing to do with load calcs, just actual load numbers.
Then again, I haven’t done one in over 20 years..
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
I was only given MOCP but in doing my calculations I did a "guesstimate" on MCA. Biggest HVAC "problem" is that all auxiliary heat & compressors can run simultaneously but, the kicker is still the insta-heats.
 

Tulsa Electrician

Senior Member
Location
Tulsa
Occupation
Electrician
On the heat pumps I get it. With out actual numbers using an educated guess is the way to go.
I used 80 since it reciprocates with 1.25.
Either way it does not change it a whole lot. Just good to know what he used as a base line.
No way I could do so quick on paper off memory.
For the talk I will change the heat pump to MCA. I agree that would the correct way to present it.
Those heaters as mentioned by other very seldom run at full capacity. By including them in the General load. I would look at the General load for the dwelling as whole. I have to wonder if by water heater they were thinking about tank type that is usually around 4500 watt not 36,000 watts which would not have much impact. However that is not what is says. This is where common sense kicks in.
Fedder service conductors need be as large as the largest branch circuit. Which in this case is the water heater @ 150 amp. So one in each panel if you use two. Then break out load from there. Since the first ten kva is at 100%. And the rest at 40% one can look at that heater in that panel as149.9 amps. The thing of it is the the water heater is feed with 4-40 amp breakers so the it is not the largest in that panel. I would say the 10kw is in #1and 15kw in the other. So the largest branch if a single circuit to the aux heat would be. 62.5 amp load. With the demand on C -3 for aux heat @ 65% or 40.6 amps the demand load on the panel is low compared to looking at connected.
Looking at it that way the calc makes since.
Now would I do it. 🤔
So if I was the owner as far sy HVAC goes I would be sure to have outside air temp sensor installed on both outside air units for starters. Then the aux heat would only run for a short period on the first sequence. Then the heat pump would load ahead on full aux heat load.
So I would put one heat pump, one air handler with aux heat and one water heater in each panel. Then balance in the lighting loads along with the other required loads.
I would run a panel connected load sheet to help balance.
I would consider if load centers are used two 225 amp or one 400 panles board. With single runs to the water heaters your going to need the space.
I would also consider since it's 3500 sf ft. Adding two 100amp panel in mech rooms for additional branch circuits helping with any voltage drop and added space. Arc/GFCI does not like voltage drop. This will also remove these from the panels with the surge loads which increases nuisance tripping.
My big concern is the poco trans and utility meter.
Many areas have one trans four many houses. Get with your utility and give connected load and have them run the numbers based on all secondary loads from a shared transformer and the load on the primary into the sub division.
As a rule I take total connected and cut in half. That most likely will be what utility will do for your secondary to the meter. You can pay the difference and have them do a larger service drop and help with voltage drop during peak load demand.
As we all know voltage drop effects the out put of those fixed resistive loads. In turn the ampacity also drops. For a water heater upon demand is used. Voltage drop can bring on additional demand for the unit. Then instead of one or two sets of sequencers it may bring on three or four to try to keep up with water demand and increase run time before the sequencers start to drop out.
Again the AFCI and GFCI combo breakers do not like this drip. While on this subject do not forget about the no load current draw of the combo units. This would be I recommend heavy load in one panel and combo branch circuit out of another.
Then there the option of a 600 amp and ct meter in transformer or however your area does it.
If I find time today after yard work. I will work on panel schedules and connected load for fun based on custom 3500 SF house(dwelling).
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Agreed. Tried to talk my sister out of one, but she insisted..
Hates it and the accompanying electric bill.
Now she wants to go with another tank style water heater.
Energy use should in theory be less, you only heating water as it is needed rather than maintaining a tank even when not using any water for long periods. That said during heating season, that energy isn't lost, it just is absorbed by the space and lessens the space heating load by whatever was lost by the tank, cooling season however it adds to cooling load.

If by needing to increase service capacity that resulted in different rate structuring - it could lead to higher energy bills. Now you may be paying extra to have the demand ability even though you may have actually reduced the total energy typically used by this particular load.

It still takes same amount of energy to raise X gallons of water by Y degrees, ignoring storage losses in a tank heater, but needs it at a much higher rate when using the tankless style heater, which can lead to demand related charges.
 

retirede

Senior Member
Location
Illinois
Energy use should in theory be less, you only heating water as it is needed rather than maintaining a tank even when not using any water for long periods. That said during heating season, that energy isn't lost, it just is absorbed by the space and lessens the space heating load by whatever was lost by the tank, cooling season however it adds to cooling load.

If by needing to increase service capacity that resulted in different rate structuring - it could lead to higher energy bills. Now you may be paying extra to have the demand ability even though you may have actually reduced the total energy typically used by this particular load.

It still takes same amount of energy to raise X gallons of water by Y degrees, ignoring storage losses in a tank heater, but needs it at a much higher rate when using the tankless style heater, which can lead to demand related charges.

But if you switch from gas to electric, it’s likely to cost more. My gas rates are triple what they were last year and they’re still equivalent to electricity at $0.045/KwH. That’s about 1/3 of my electric rate. Both including service, delivery charges, and taxes.
 
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