AHJ within their authority

[BackCountry]

I know the old saying, whatever your inspector wants is what you have to do — at the same time, I’m sure someone here has experienced this before and I’d love to learn from your experience

We have a small city in our service area with a contract inspector who’s all over enforcing breaker listing in existing panels. To clarify: we primarily do solar, so we run into existing panels on every job unless we’re doing a panel replacement. We are responsible for using the appropriate listed breaker with our installation. This inspector is requiring us to replace any unlisted existing breaker, even if not within the scope of our work. It seems a little excessive to me, wondering what everyone else runs into. I don’t see this with other cities, just this inspector.

He loves to suggest that we use Eaton classified breakers — which are of course nearly impossible to locate and costly. We stock Siemens, Eaton and Square D — the most recent panel was a Gould panel that had Eaton BR breakers in it. We came back and switched them to Siemens, again — existing, not within our scope and had been there since the initial home final inspection was signed off.

Thoughts?

 

[NTesla76]

As an inspector, I would ask you use the breaker of the manufacturer of the panel if possible in your scope of work. Asking you to replace any that aren't the same, isn't correct in my opinion.

 

[petersonra]

I'm inclined to think that as long as you do not disturb in any way the existing breakers, you are not under any obligation to fix any problems with them. However if you were to move some breakers into different slots that would be a different case because you uninstalled them and then reinstalled them once you uninstall them it's your problem to make it right and you can't just reinstall breakers you know are inappropriate.

 

[d0nut]

While I agree that the inspector can't really add corrections of existing conditions to your scope, he can certainly require that the owner fix the issues. At the most extreme, he could condemn the house or pull the CO for the building until the issue is corrected.

 

[zbang]

"I can't touch that, it's not part of my permit."

 

[petersonra]

While I agree that the inspector can't really add corrections of existing conditions to your scope, he can certainly require that the owner fix the issues. At the most extreme, he could condemn the house or pull the CO for the building until the issue is corrected.

Most places the inspector has no practical way to require corrections of existing conditions. The only time I have ever heard of a residential co being pulled was after a catastrophic event like a fire or flood.

 

[gadfly56]

Most places the inspector has no practical way to require corrections of existing conditions. The only time I have ever heard of a residential co being pulled was after a catastrophic event like a fire or flood.

Exactly. The only exception would be "immediately dangerous to life and health", and that would be subsequent to some even like flooding or fire.

 

[ramsy]

..again — existing, not within our scope and had been there since the initial home final inspection was signed off.

Why not anticipate 2 different prices on same contract?

1st price within scope
2nd price with unforeseen additions,
which depends on owner change orders, and extraordinary AHJ mandates, such as 1, 2, 3, etc..

When inspectors pull this stuff, remind owner that you warned them this could happen, before they signed your contract.

Kick the can to owner, to protest AHJ additions beyond project scope.

 

[Hv&Lv]

Most places the inspector has no practical way to require corrections of existing conditions. The only time I have ever heard of a residential co being pulled was after a catastrophic event like a fire or flood.

When that’s done we require a letter from the inspections department asking us to turn off the power.
We will not pull a meter on an inspectors say so. Had a couple of inspectors try, but they aren’t paying the bill.
That being said, we may have pulled two or three with letter in hand in the last 20 years.

 

[BackCountry]

All good points. His rationale is that he will not final the inspection card if there is a non listed breaker in the panel, I pushed back and said it’s not within our scope — and he said that’s fine, the home owner needs to handle it then. Not exactly helpful. In this era of breaker shortages everywhere, it can be a real challenge. I think he’s out of his scope — the code clearly says that the assembly must be listed; however, I don’t see how he can apply that to existing conditions.

He also won’t give a courtesy call, or give you an AM or PM window… a real peach. Nothing like having four inspections on the same day and not knowing which one he’ll show to first?

I’ll just bring our box truck in the future so at least I have every breaker known to man (that we can get at least) and pass the cost through to the customer.

 

[ramsy]

He also won’t give a courtesy call, or give you an AM or PM window… a real peach. Nothing like having four inspections on the same day and not knowing which one he’ll show to first?

You give this AHJ lots of work, 4 jobs in one day.

How much of that is abatement of prior hack jobs (missing permits)?

 

[BackCountry]

Don’t let me sound like we’re out there running and gunning — I try to stack my inspections all into one day, so we’ll finish a week or two worth of jobs and then I try to come back and do them all at once, depending on location.

I see a lot of DIY circuit additions (hot tubs, that sort of thing) that don’t have any form of clamp, bushing, or any knockout protection. Luckily here in California, there are very few meter with separate load center configurations here, they’re almost always CSED meter load center combo’s, flush mounted in stucco. On those, we can’t pull off more than 20A of backfeed using the 120% rule if it’s an existing 100A service — so we try to do 200A upgrades whenever possible. That being said, our local utility will not allow 4/0 AL in 2” conduit for underground services, which most of these are if they’re not overhead. If that happens, then we have to do a meter socket with a flush mount load center and do a line side tap off the main breaker’s feeders from the meter. It’s always an adventure.

Trying to pull off 4 inspections in a day is my own fault, it never goes right and I should probably stop trying to make it work. We’re a very small company and efficiency is important to us, I’m still learning and trying to perfect that — and having to swap out someone else’s non-listed breaker just rubs me the wrong way.

 

[tortuga]

This inspector is requiring us to replace any unlisted existing breaker, even if not within the scope of our work. It seems a little excessive to me, wondering what everyone else runs into..../snip/..

Thoughts?

The term Grandfathered means that an existing building does not have to comply with the current code because it was legally built before the application of the code, however
that existing building does need to comply with the code in effect when the building was built.
Installations that do not comply with the current code AND/OR the code in effect when then building was built are illegal.
And it was never legal to change brand of breakers. I feel like it was a bigger deal back in the day than it is now.
As soon as you have a legal issue your contract with the customer should oblige them to let you handle it.
I am not sure what our company wording is, but its a legal snafu for sure.
Consider your self lucky your only doing solar.
Unfortunately enforcement by inspectors varies, but failure of one inspector to enforce a part of the law does not change the law.

 

[petersonra]

How does a mere inspector who has no actual authority Force anybody to do much of anything.

 

[ramsy]

How does a mere inspector who has no actual authority Force anybody to do much of anything.

See #9 above for administrative actions.

See Texas code enforcement take them out by firing squad.

 

[BackCountry]

I like the suggestion to add a T&M clause into our contract if any as built changes are required.

The hard part about solar is that we can’t submit an interconnection agreement with the utility unless we have a scanned inspection card with “final” signed off. And that of course means we can’t collect our final progress payment until the utility application is submitted, so the inspectors have us in a tight spot.

Solar is an interesting part of our industry. We’re C-10 licensed electrical contractors, and with the prevalence of energy storage systems, we’re regularly transferring all existing loads into new backup loads panels behind a transfer switch, which usually means we do a 200A upgrade at the same time. It’s a lot of little detailed steps that can end up taking hours longer than you want it to — mainly because we have CSED panels, so there’s no easy way to bypass each branch circuit as you would with a meter socket and a main breaker panel.

I appreciate everyone’s advice and experiences, and maybe some day I’ll find someone that has those magical Eaton classified breakers in stock.

 

[petersonra]

See #9 above for administrative actions.

See Texas code enforcement take them out by firing squad.

Note that the inspector has no authority on his own to do this. Has to come as an action by the AHJ which is never ever the inspector.

 

[Tulsa Electrician]

What year of code you on there?

 

[gadfly56]

Note that the inspector has no authority on his own to do this. Has to come as an action by the AHJ which is never ever the inspector.

I don't know about Texas or Illinois, but it is very common to have the sub-code official (AHJ) come and inspect your work here in NJ.

 

[tortuga]

I appreciate everyone’s advice and experiences, and maybe some day I’ll find someone that has those magical Eaton classified breakers in stock.

FYI Connecticut Electric has a line of classified breakers that are pretty easy to get. Last time I used them they were just re-branded Siemens breakers with an extra sticker on them.