LED'S VERSES INCANDESCENTS - Are they really more energy efficient ?

[mtnelect]

As shown in the two images, LED light and incandescent light do not have the same characteristics and LED light, by virtue of the excessive amount of toxic blue wavelength light, is a low-quality light.
It should be noted that the reason that the manufacturers use blue wavelength light in LEDs is because this is how they increase luminous efficacy and reduce costs. The industry claims that LEDs are energy efficient are false because LEDs don’t provide the same high-quality spectral distribution as incandescent. If the manufacturers were to make LEDs with the same quality of spectral power distribution as incandescent, the luminous efficacy would be no better than incandescent.

More information to follow ...

 

[infinity]

Who cares if the light from an LED is a slightly lower quality than incandescent? Bottom line is that they use far less energy (translation $$$) for the same amount of light.

 

[wwhitney]

toxic blue wavelength light

What's the LD₅₀ of blue wavelength light?

Cheers, Wayne

 

[synchro]

In certain instances such as a photographic studio, an art gallery or studio. etc., the quality of light might be an overriding factor. And then incandescents / halogens may be preferred, but not in all cases. And even then the cost of electricity may be more important. The reduced heat and infrared that LEDs put out can also be a significant benefit.
Another thing to consider is that there's a wide variation in light quality across LED products, with some reasonably good and others poor.

 

[mtnelect]

As shown in the two images, LED light and incandescent light do not have the same characteristics and LED light, by virtue of the excessive amount of toxic blue wavelength light, is a low-quality light.
It should be noted that the reason that the manufacturers use blue wavelength light in LEDs is because this is how they increase luminous efficacy and reduce costs. The industry claims that LEDs are energy efficient are false because LEDs don’t provide the same high-quality spectral distribution as incandescent. If the manufacturers were to make LEDs with the same quality of spectral power distribution as incandescent, the luminous efficacy would be no better than incandescent.

More information to follow ...

The article 1789-2015 - IEEE Recommended Practices for Modulating Current in High-Brightness LEDs for Mitigating Health Risks to Viewers shows the difference between the analog sine wave flicker from an incandescent, and the digital square wave flicker of an LED. As noted by IEEE, “Presently, there are no standards on safe modulating frequencies for high-brightness LEDs.” This lack of safety standards for LEDs makes LEDs very dangerous because chip makers and lamp manufacturers have no restrictions on the flicker emitted by the LED.
Figure 6 shows the flicker characteristics of an incandescent. The sine wave is continuous and smooth and the light output changes by 6.6% as the alternating current cycles.

More information to follow ...

 

[mtnelect]

The article 1789-2015 - IEEE Recommended Practices for Modulating Current in High-Brightness LEDs for Mitigating Health Risks to Viewers shows the difference between the analog sine wave flicker from an incandescent, and the digital square wave flicker of an LED. As noted by IEEE, “Presently, there are no standards on safe modulating frequencies for high-brightness LEDs.” This lack of safety standards for LEDs makes LEDs very dangerous because chip makers and lamp manufacturers have no restrictions on the flicker emitted by the LED.
Figure 6 shows the flicker characteristics of an incandescent. The sine wave is continuous and smooth and the light output changes by 6.6% as the alternating current cycles.

More information to follow ...

On the other hand, Figure 7 shows the essentially discontinuous function of the square wave flicker of an LED. The light output drops from 100% to 0% and then back to 100% as the alternating current cycles. The discontinuous function and the extreme change between states produces flicker that is incompatible with the human nervous system.

The square wave flicker is neurologically dangerous for many people, and this makes LED light a low-quality light. For some people, this flicker is not consciously noticeable, but for others the flicker is consciously noticeable. However, even if the square wave flicker is not consciously noticeable, it is still having a negative effect on human health and is to be avoided. Since square wave flicker is lower in quality than analog sine wave flicker, the LED light is a
lower quality light than incandescent, and DOE cannot claim that LEDs have the same characteristics as incandescent and cannot claim that LEDs are energy efficient.

 

[mtnelect]

What's the LD₅₀ of blue wavelength light?

Cheers, Wayne

Figure 4 shows the spectral power distribution of a 5500K LED lamp. Notice the sharp spike of blue wavelength at 450nm which is the same wavelength that is toxic for humans and damaging to the eye. In addition, notice the trough at 490nm-cyan and lack of red and infrared light. This distribution of energies in the visible spectrum is low quality because of the toxicity of blue wavelength light, the piecewise spectral distribution, and lack of red wavelength.

 

[mtnelect]

To be “more efficient”, the non-incandescent replacement must provide the same light quality as incandescent. A non-incandescent cannot simply achieve a higher luminous efficacy than incandescent by having different or lower light quality metrics and be considered “more efficient”. The DOE incorrectly concludes that all non-incandescent lamp types, including LEDs, included in the GSL have the same characteristics as incandescent. LEDs have non-uniform luminance compared to the uniform luminance of incandescent. Most LEDs have a large peak of blue wavelength light compared to almost no blue for an incandescent. LEDs have square wave flicker compared to sine wave flicker for an incandescent. The so-called General Service Light Emitting Diode Lamp cannot be classified as a General Service Lamp because it has different light output characteristics than an incandescent.

 

[James L]

Light quality isn't the largest factor in efficiency.
But many LED manufacturers pour untold numbers of dollars into trying to overcome ge poor quality in the red spectrum. That's where CRI comes in. In many cases, 70 is ok enough. 80 is good most times. 90+ is demanded for grocery stores, furniture stores, etc

But several people have hashed this out before with someone here. Was it @Flicker Index ?

 

[retirede]

Figure 4 shows the spectral power distribution of a 5500K LED lamp. Notice the sharp spike of blue wavelength at 450nm which is the same wavelength that is toxic for humans and damaging to the eye. In addition, notice the trough at 490nm-cyan and lack of red and infrared light. This distribution of energies in the visible spectrum is low quality because of the toxicity of blue wavelength light, the piecewise spectral distribution, and lack of red wavelength.

You didn’t answer his question.

 

[mtnelect]

What's the LD₅₀ of blue wavelength light?

Cheers, Wayne

I don't know ... but looking at packing lot LED fixture is not good for your eyes. I guess, it's like looking at the sun !

 

[mtnelect]

I started on this quest after troubleshooting a blinking LED installation. The DOE does not have any requirements on the health hazards of LEDs. The blue wavelength is not healthy for your eyes and can cause other problems like with the magnetic fluorescent ballasts of the 1980s. Office workers were complaining of headaches after working 8 hours under the fluorescent lights. The LED phenomenon is not without complications.

 

[James L]

I started on this quest after troubleshooting a blinking LED installation. The DOE does not have any requirements on the health hazards of LEDs. The blue wavelength is not healthy for your eyes and can cause other problems like with the magnetic fluorescent ballasts of the 1980s. Office workers were complaining of headaches after working 8 hours under the fluorescent lights. The LED phenomenon is not without complications.

There have been studies on the effects of street lighting that's 5000k and above. I had a couple of interesting articles a few years ago

 

[ramsy]

There have been studies on the effects of street lighting that's 5000k and above. I had a couple of interesting articles a few years ago

Fire code that prohibits strobe frequencies that cause epileptic seizures goes back 30+ years to fire-alarm systems. Have not looked at studies on deleterious effects of higher LED Flicker frequencies, but that research may prove interesting.

Deleterious effects of concentrated blue-spectrum light is well studied, since 4100+k linear-fluorescent tubes went into office spaces.
The option of selecting higher CRI and softer 3000k lamps for reduced headaches & sleep disorders is common knowledge.

What's not common knowledge is how token fines for standards enforcement are leveraged as a comparative advantage against following the rules. Industry regulation varies between socialism, corporatism, and patent pillaging nations. The playing field approaches the same level when all players match the baddest actor.

Existing inventories of retailers is the States are also exempt from new standards & regulations, until the manufacturing process can be adapted, if ever. The 10yr-sealed battery required for smoke alarms was adopted over 10yrs ago, and existing retailer inventories of smokes with 9-volt batteries are still being sold.

 

[tortuga]

Does the flicker / strobe problem of LED not just come form products that use cheap electronic AC/DC switch mode (transformer-less) power supplies ?
My guess is if you drove a 2200k-2700k LED with a linear power supply and some kind of constant current regular you could achieve true DC no flicker.

 

[winnie]

Mtnelct, your style of addressing your points is very similar to various disinformation topics that are prohibited on this forum.

It is absolutely true that _some_ LEDs have horrible spectral characteristics.

It is absolutely true that _some_ LEDs have horrible flicker characteristics.

I'm certain that we've all encountered poorly designed LED fixtures (especially street lights) which make high intensity small viewing angle emitters directly visible.

It is absolutely true that certain types of light source can cause injury, discomfort, or simply annoyance.

There is debate about the dangers of excessive visible range blue light.

But this doesn't mean that LEDs are not efficient. In terms of raw energy performance, LEDs are vastly superior to incandescent lamps, and generally better than mercury vapor fluorescent lamps. LEDs are very 'efficient'.

I would agree that many of the sins of some poor LED designs are caused by the pursuit of 'efficiency' without any consideration of other factors.

We as customers should be selecting better quality LEDs, and as professionals we should be educating our customers about important factors in selecting good products. Not simply rejecting all LEDs with false claims about efficiency.

Jon

 

[mtnelect]

Mtnelct, your style of addressing your points is very similar to various disinformation topics that are prohibited on this forum.

It is absolutely true that _some_ LEDs have horrible spectral characteristics.

It is absolutely true that _some_ LEDs have horrible flicker characteristics.

I'm certain that we've all encountered poorly designed LED fixtures (especially street lights) which make high intensity small viewing angle emitters directly visible.

It is absolutely true that certain types of light source can cause injury, discomfort, or simply annoyance.

There is debate about the dangers of excessive visible range blue light.

But this doesn't mean that LEDs are not efficient. In terms of raw energy performance, LEDs are vastly superior to incandescent lamps, and generally better than mercury vapor fluorescent lamps. LEDs are very 'efficient'.

I would agree that many of the sins of some poor LED designs are caused by the pursuit of 'efficiency' without any consideration of other factors.

We as customers should be selecting better quality LEDs, and as professionals we should be educating our customers about important factors in selecting good products. Not simply rejecting all LEDs with false claims about efficiency.

Jon

I was on the LED train with others, until I was confronted with the uncontrollable flicker on an installation. I used the "Scientific Method" ... change everything out until it is fixed ! Nothing worked, so to satisfy the customer I changed back to incandescent. Thats when my quest for information started.

I started being more observant of all styles of LED fixtures and noticed some trends.
1. Flickering
2. Modular parts of the fixture going out.
3. Heat dissipation fins
4. Fixtures not lasting the warranty. This was an LED fixture upgrade at a large shopping center that I visit weekly.

The verdict is still out on LEDs !

 

[James L]

I was on the LED train with others, until I was confronted with the uncontrollable flicker on an installation. I used the "Scientific Method" ... change everything out until it is fixed ! Nothing worked, so to satisfy the customer I changed back to incandescent. Thats when my quest for information started.

I started being more observant of all styles of LED fixtures and noticed some trends.
1. Flickering
2. Modular parts of the fixture going out.
3. Heat dissipation fins
4. Fixtures not lasting the warranty. This was an LED fixture upgrade at a large shopping center that I visit weekly.

The verdict is still out on LEDs !

For sure, LED is not the answer in every situation

One thing is certian, however. Manufacturers are working at making them more efficient, longer lasting, and with better color rendering.

 

[ggunn]

Figure 4 shows the spectral power distribution of a 5500K LED lamp. Notice the sharp spike of blue wavelength at 450nm which is the same wavelength that is toxic for humans ...

I do not see how light can be toxic. Unpleasant, OK; eye damaging if it is too bright, sure, but toxic? Toxicity is a chemical effect.

 

[kwired]

First thing is what aspect does efficiency apply to?

Primary aspect that is usually a comparison is input energy as compared to other light source types.

That doesn't always mean equal lighting quality with various lighting types either though.

Fluorescent tube lighting is something that been around for quite some time and has always used less energy than incandescent for "similar lighting levels" but at same time has always had different light characteristics as well, then you had some the same things with HID light sources.

HPS at one time was considered most efficient for input watts per lumen, but had horrible color rendition and was mostly only considered suitable for outdoor lighting or certain industrial applications.