Questions about Scope of NEC

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00crashtest

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California
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electrician trainee
I have the 2017 and 2020 Editions of the National Electric Code. The language is often somewhat vague and is filled with conflicting statements, so I'm extremely confused. As a result, I need some clarification.


In 90.2(A), it says that the scope of the code covers mobile homes, carnivals, and floating buildings. Well, that is understandable because all are normally considered structures (albeit moveable) and not vehicles. However, why does the NEC apply to RVs, when it is normally considered a vehicle and not a building? If they apply it to RVs, why doesn't the NEC to all other vehicles, especially overnight coach buses, Amtrak trains, cruise ships, and wide-body airliners, which all also have sleeping compartments and lavatories? Also, what counts as an RV, because the normal definitions vary so widely and is not defined in Section 100 of the NEC? Also, when an RV is under the jurisdiction of the DMV and not the buildings department, how can an RV ever be required to follow the NEC under any AHJ?

In 90.2(A)(2), it says that it covers yards, lots, parking lots, and industrial substations. Why mention parking lots when it is already included under lots? Also, what do they mean exactly by lots, which is a super vague term? If they mean land lots, then wouldn't all the other mentions in the "covered" section besides floating homes, mobile homes, and RVs be superfluous? Wouldn't it also make the "covered" section conflict with the "not covered" section, beccause no exception was given within either section regarding the overlapped areas of mention (so no hierarchy is estsblished)? Also, what about yards, another very vague term? Front yard, backyard, railyard, bus yard, truck yard, shipyard, aerodrome yard (apron)?

It also does not mention whether it covers onshore wind turbines that are not owned by electric utility companeis, offshore non-floating structures that are not owned or leased by an electric utility company, embassies/consulates of the US located outside of the nation's own territory, and US CBP preclearance facilities located outside of the nation's own territory.

Also, in 90.2(B)(1), why does it classify floating buildings as watercraft and mobile homes as automotive vehicles, when they clearly aren't, having no means of propulsion, hydrodynamic features, or wheels and can't even be registered as a vehicle by the US Coast Guard or DMV?

In 90.2(B)(2), what exactly do they mean by railway? Is it limited to just mainline railways or does it also include non-mainline heavy rail rapid transit, light rail transit, monorails, funiculars, roller coasters, and maglevs (if they do get built here)?

Also, since the NEC is not a legal document per se, does this mean that all of the Code besides the "not covered" section can actually apply to items listed under that section under certain AHJs?
 

Sea Nile

Senior Member
Location
Georgia
Occupation
Electrician
I think it covers RVs because you can actually live in them. I'm sure there is something in another publication that covers overnight coach buses, Amtrak trains, cruise ships, and wide-body airliners, etc.

If you really have the need to know the "why" behind the code, I would recommend reading the notes from the panels. The NEC will only tell you what you have to do, or what your not allowed to do.

You asked a lot of questions, and the answers will likely lead to more questions, the best course of action IMO is get the Mike Holt book and video "Understanding the NEC" I think it will answer most of your questions, but if not, everyone here is awesome and very helpful with clarifying.
 

don_resqcapt19

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retired electrician
...

It also does not mention whether it covers onshore wind turbines that are not owned by electric utility companeis, offshore non-floating structures that are not owned or leased by an electric utility company, embassies/consulates of the US located outside of the nation's own territory, and US CBP preclearance facilities located outside of the nation's own territory.

...
It doesn't apply anywhere unless adopted by a unit of government that has the authority to adopt building codes, or is referenced by contract documents.
The word "national" in the title is nothing more than a marketing term used by the publisher of the code. It has no real meaning other than as part of the title for the document.
 

gene6

Senior Member
Location
NY
Occupation
Electrician
embassies/consulates of the US located outside of the nation's own territory, and US CBP preclearance facilities located outside of the nation's own territory.
I can't confirm or deny if the NEC is used at all U.S government department of state embassies/consulates/facilities outside our territories.
 

paulengr

Senior Member
I can't confirm or deny if the NEC is used at all U.S government department of state embassies/consulates/facilities outside our territories.

It’s not even mandatory in federal facilities within the US. Military bases for instance have their own rules which vary by service branch.

Wait until you read NESC and NEC and then OSHA 1910.269 and just try to figure out jurisdiction.
 

00crashtest

Senior Member
Location
California
Occupation
electrician trainee
I think it covers RVs because you can actually live in them. I'm sure there is something in another publication that covers overnight coach buses, Amtrak trains, cruise ships, and wide-body airliners, etc.

If you really have the need to know the "why" behind the code, I would recommend reading the notes from the panels. The NEC will only tell you what you have to do, or what your not allowed to do.

You asked a lot of questions, and the answers will likely lead to more questions, the best course of action IMO is get the Mike Holt book and video "Understanding the NEC" I think it will answer most of your questions, but if not, everyone here is awesome and very helpful with clarifying.
But one can also live in Amtrak trains if Amtrak decides to rent out parked ones as hotels. Ditto for first class compartments in grounded twin-aisle airliners and moored cruise ships. Also, even under current commercial practice, the transportation crew already lives in those vehicles. Also, does RV cover motorhomes for the purpose of this code? That is because it seems like many states consider motorhomes as RVs, and just as many do not consider them as motorhomes. That even varies county by county, municipality by municipality, or even trailer park by trailer park! Also, do skoolies and van campers count as RVs for the purpose of the National Electric Code?
 

00crashtest

Senior Member
Location
California
Occupation
electrician trainee
It doesn't apply anywhere unless adopted by a unit of government that has the authority to adopt building codes, or is referenced by contract documents.
The word "national" in the title is nothing more than a marketing term used by the publisher of the code. It has no real meaning other than as part of the title for the document.
Yes, I know. But what if a Federal Agency decides to say "adopt the NEC 2020 in its entirety" without any other mention. Then does it apply to the facilities of the federal agency that are not mentioned in either "covered" or "not covered"? The NEC is super vague on thus because there are HUGE holes as well as overlapping contradictions in its statements of scope.
 

00crashtest

Senior Member
Location
California
Occupation
electrician trainee
But one can also live in Amtrak trains if Amtrak decides to rent out parked ones as hotels. Ditto for first class compartments in grounded twin-aisle airliners and moored cruise ships. Also, even under current commercial practice, the transportation crew already lives in those vehicles. Also, does RV cover motorhomes for the purpose of this code? That is because it seems like many states consider motorhomes as RVs, and just as many do not consider them as motorhomes. That even varies county by county, municipality by municipality, or even trailer park by trailer park! Also, do skoolies and van campers count as RVs for the purpose of the National Electric Code?
Also, one can already live in a houseboat (not a floating home, because self-propelled and registered to the DMV or US Coast Guard like like all other watercraft), yacht, or private jet.
 

Sea Nile

Senior Member
Location
Georgia
Occupation
Electrician
But one can also live in Amtrak trains if Amtrak decides to rent out parked ones as hotels. Ditto for first class compartments in grounded twin-aisle airliners and moored cruise ships.
This is what I call a rabbit hole, sorry my friend, I'm not going to chase you down it. Like I said earlier, if you want to know the "why" I would recommend reading the notes and public inputs from the panel. If you want to know how to comply with something in the NEC, then I will share if I think I have a grasp on the answer. But if I don't know something I'll always predicate it with a "I'm not sure, but"
 

00crashtest

Senior Member
Location
California
Occupation
electrician trainee
I can't confirm or deny if the NEC is used at all U.S government department of state embassies/consulates/facilities outside our territories.
Then can you confirm or deny whether the US CBP preclearance facilities in Canadian international airports use NEC or not (using Canadian Electrical Code in that case), or have to comply with both?
 

00crashtest

Senior Member
Location
California
Occupation
electrician trainee
It’s not even mandatory in federal facilities within the US. Military bases for instance have their own rules which vary by service branch.
Yes, I know. But even then, the basically the entirety of the "not covered" section contradicts the "covered" section, because no exception is given for the "not covered" section under the "covered" section. So, a government building department, if they had decided to follow the NEC entirely, could interpret it in such a way that all installations under "not covered" will have to comply with the "covered" section of the NEC as a matter of preventative caution, because its statements are conflicting.

I've studied physics, chemistry, and even super complicated calculus before, and all of them were straightforward for clear for me to understand, despite how complex they were. There were no ambiguities or conflicting statements, except where experiments haven't been capable of testing out the extreme conditions covered by the established theories yet, such as quantum field theories.
 
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00crashtest

Senior Member
Location
California
Occupation
electrician trainee
Yes, I know. But even then, the basically the entirety of the "not covered" section contradicts the "covered" section, because no exception is given for the "not covered" section under the "covered" section. So, a government building department, if they had decided to follow the NEC entirely, could interpret it in such a way that all installations under "not covered" will have to comply with the "covered" section of the NEC as a matter of preventative caution, because its statements are conflicting.

I've studied physics, chemistry, and even super complicated calculus before, and all of them were straightforward for clear for me to understand, despite how complex they were. There were no ambiguities or conflicting statements, except where experiments haven't been capable of testing out the extreme conditions covered by the established theories yet, such as quantum field theories.
It’s not even mandatory in federal facilities within the US. Military bases for instance have their own rules which vary by service branch.
So, a government buildings department on US territory, if they had decided to follow the NEC entirely, could interpret it in such a way that all installations under "not covered" will have to comply with the "covered" section of the NEC out of an abundance of caution, because its statements are conflicting. I think those who know about British/Irish, Indian/Pakistan (which is exactly the pre-WWII British standard, if done to full code like in government buildings), and Australian/New Zealand electrical mains circuits and appliances, would know about how much more clear and strict those codes are. Their electrical systems are way overengineered compared to those in the US and Canada. Is that why electricity prices are higher by a significant margin in those places (when accounting for purchasing power parity) compared to the US and Canada?

British/Irish plugs are famous for having a fuse in every plug. They are also infamous for prohibiting electrical mains receptacles and switches in lavatories besides power-limited shaver sockets. It was only until the 2007 code edition that allowed general sockets and switches on RCD (GFCI) circuits in lavatories, and they had to be located at least 3 metres away from the nearest faucet or wet basin.
 

00crashtest

Senior Member
Location
California
Occupation
electrician trainee
This is what I call a rabbit hole, sorry my friend, I'm not going to chase you down it. Like I said earlier, if you want to know the "why" I would recommend reading the notes and public inputs from the panel. If you want to know how to comply with something in the NEC, then I will share if I think I have a grasp on the answer. But if I don't know something I'll always predicate it with a "I'm not sure, but"
The question is not just about the why. I also want to know specifically whether the NEC applies to motorhomes, skoolies, truck campers placed entirely over the pickup bed, and van campers. Also, what about regular minivans, 3-row crossovers, pickup trucks, and tractor units of tractor trailers that have 115-volt receptacles factory-installed by the OEM? Those plugs are included to allow people to camp in them, espcially important for long-haul truckers. So, are they covered under the NEC?
 

00crashtest

Senior Member
Location
California
Occupation
electrician trainee
Fully understanding the NEC for me is even more difficult than super precise electronics standards (such as IEEE, ITU, TIA, CD, DVD, Blu-ray, USB, HDMI, Secure Digital, EV plugs), computer programming, general relativity, quantum mechanics, calculus because of the indeterminism in its definitions. Is the NEC purposely designed to be vague so that it gives authorities having jurisdiction wiggle room in their implementation?
 
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roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
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Retired Electrician
Also, since the NEC is not a legal document per se, does this mean that all of the Code besides the "not covered" section can actually apply to items listed under that section under certain AHJs?
Local authority can add or subtract from the NEC (or any code) as they want. It should be done formally though.
 

gene6

Senior Member
Location
NY
Occupation
Electrician
It’s not even mandatory in federal facilities within the US. Military bases for instance have their own rules which vary by service branch.

Wait until you read NESC and NEC and then OSHA 1910.269 and just try to figure out jurisdiction.
Oh believe me I know.
for those interested in public details do a google search for MIL-STD-961 + "national electrical code"
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Yes, I know. But what if a Federal Agency decides to say "adopt the NEC 2020 in its entirety" without any other mention. Then does it apply to the facilities of the federal agency that are not mentioned in either "covered" or "not covered"? The NEC is super vague on thus because there are HUGE holes as well as overlapping contradictions in its statements of scope.
It always applies to whatever the adopting agency says it applies to.

I see no real world issues with the questions you have raised.

Looking forward to seeing your PI with a new comprehensive statement of where the NEC applies for the 2026 code. The process for submission of Public Inputs to make changes to the 2026 code will be open in a month or two..
 

tom baker

First Chief Moderator & NEC Expert
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Location
Bremerton, Washington
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Master Electrician
It’s not even mandatory in federal facilities within the US. Military bases for instance have their own rules which vary by service branch.

Wait until you read NESC and NEC and then OSHA 1910.269 and just try to figure out jurisdiction.
I have taught electrical classes at air force, army, naval sub bases, air stations and shipyards, being federal they are under OSHA. OSHA uses the latest edition of the NEC. But electricians are not required to be certified and there are no permits or inspections. So in a way the NEC is not mandatory
 
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