Breaker tripping inconsistently. PLEASE HELP!!!

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TJenks048

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Location
West Virginia
Occupation
Commercial Electrician
Hi I'm Travis!

Just want to start off by saying that all my experience has been as a commercial electrician doing NEW WORK ONLY, so my experience is very limited as far as troubleshooting is concerned.

I am attaching an image of a sketch I did of the circuit so when I refer to something, you'll be able to know exactly what I'm referring to.

My breaker keeps tripping very randomly and inconsistently. Here are the steps I have taken so far. And this does not appear to be an overload problem, because it has tripped with nothing in the any of the receptacles being on. Also, since this is in the kitchen, when I refer to taking apart a receptacle, that also involves wire nutting the conductors together so the rest of the receptacles and lights could be used. And all of these boxes are plastic, so that can be eliminated as being a possible problem.

1) The first thing I did was replace the breaker. It tripped a short time after that.

2) So the next thing I wanted to do was check all the receptacles themselves. The first thing I did was start by taking receptacle #7 apart because it is the end of the run. It didn't have any signs of a loose connection and no burn marks. A while later, the breaker tripped.

3) Repeat of step 2 with receptacle #6

4) I opened the box to receptacle #4 and disconnected the wires that feeds receptacle #5 since it is for the dishwasher and I was trying to avoid taking the dishwasher out. A few hours later, the breaker tripped.

5) I then took receptacles #4 - #1 apart one at a time (I really thought it was going to be receptacle #2 since it is a GFCI). No signs of loose connections or burn marks. And after I took apart each of them, the breaker eventually tripped. So I had eliminated the receptacles themselves as being the problem.

6) I then took the double-gang switch box apart. All connections were tight and no signs of arching. I then disconnected the switches from the hots and disconnected the neutrals from the lights. I let it go for about a day, and the breaker DID NOT trip.

7) I tested continuity between hot-neutral and hot-ground on both switch legs, and one of them had continuity between the hot-neutral. I thought I had found the problem. So I connected the switch leg that tested good to the switch and left the bad one disconnected. But the next day the breaker tripped AGAIN.

8) I then disconnected the switch with the good switch leg. I then got really busy with my business, so I just left the switch legs disconnected for about 2 weeks, and the breaker didn't trip once. But then, with both switch legs disconnected, I was getting back to troubleshooting. I was about to take the boxes for the light fixtures apart, and the breaker tripped. The lights weren't even connected, just the receptacles.

So now, I'm sitting here scratching my head. The breaker is starting to trip more frequently now. I thought I had been thorough with my troubleshooting. I can only think of 2 things: 1) it's a conductor that's between the panel and the last receptacle that is very slightly damaged somehow, and occasionally arcs or 2) the conductor from the panel to receptacle #2 runs through the crawlspace and might have a junction box that I'm unaware of and there is a loose connection or there is water in the junction box.

Any help would be much appreciated because I'm at the end of my troubleshooting capabilities. ThanksView attachment 172504
 
TJenks048 said:
Hi I'm Travis!

Just want to start off by saying that all my experience has been as a commercial electrician doing NEW WORK ONLY, so my experience is very limited as far as troubleshooting is concerned.

I am attaching an image of a sketch I did of the circuit so when I refer to something, you'll be able to know exactly what I'm referring to.

My breaker keeps tripping very randomly and inconsistently. Here are the steps I have taken so far. And this does not appear to be an overload problem, because it has tripped with nothing in the any of the receptacles being on. Also, since this is in the kitchen, when I refer to taking apart a receptacle, that also involves wire nutting the conductors together so the rest of the receptacles and lights could be used. And all of these boxes are plastic, so that can be eliminated as being a possible problem.

1) The first thing I did was replace the breaker. It tripped a short time after that.
Click to expand...
What kind of breaker is it? AFCI? GFCI?

TJenks048 said:
2) So the next thing I wanted to do was check all the receptacles themselves. The first thing I did was start by taking receptacle #7 apart because it is the end of the run. It didn't have any signs of a loose connection and no burn marks. A while later, the breaker tripped.

3) Repeat of step 2 with receptacle #6

4) I opened the box to receptacle #4 and disconnected the wires that feeds receptacle #5 since it is for the dishwasher and I was trying to avoid taking the dishwasher out. A few hours later, the breaker tripped.

5) I then took receptacles #4 - #1 apart one at a time (I really thought it was going to be receptacle #2 since it is a GFCI). No signs of loose connections or burn marks. And after I took apart each of them, the breaker eventually tripped. So I had eliminated the receptacles themselves as being the problem.

6) I then took the double-gang switch box apart. All connections were tight and no signs of arching. I then disconnected the switches from the hots and disconnected the neutrals from the lights. I let it go for about a day, and the breaker DID NOT trip.

7) I tested continuity between hot-neutral and hot-ground on both switch legs, and one of them had continuity between the hot-neutral. I thought I had found the problem. So I connected the switch leg that tested good to the switch and left the bad one disconnected. But the next day the breaker tripped AGAIN.
Click to expand...
You should always have continuity between H and N unless you open the main coming into your house because it is seeing the transformer winding up on the pole outside which is a dead short to the DC resistance reading of your voltmeter..

TJenks048 said:
8) I then disconnected the switch with the good switch leg. I then got really busy with my business, so I just left the switch legs disconnected for about 2 weeks, and the breaker didn't trip once. But then, with both switch legs disconnected, I was getting back to troubleshooting. I was about to take the boxes for the light fixtures apart, and the breaker tripped. The lights weren't even connected, just the receptacles.

So now, I'm sitting here scratching my head. The breaker is starting to trip more frequently now. I thought I had been thorough with my troubleshooting. I can only think of 2 things: 1) it's a conductor that's between the panel and the last receptacle that is very slightly damaged somehow, and occasionally arcs or 2) the conductor from the panel to receptacle #2 runs through the crawlspace and might have a junction box that I'm unaware of and there is a loose connection or there is water in the junction box.

Any help would be much appreciated because I'm at the end of my troubleshooting capabilities. ThanksView attachment 172504
Click to expand...
Can't see your sketch for some reason.

since you replaced the breaker, it probably is not the breaker.

that leaves you with some intermittent fault. very painful to debug sometimes.
 
I can't view the attachment, but I can tell you've already got some issues with the fact that your lighting and dishwasher are connected with 7 countertop receptacles.
 
James L said:
I can't view the attachment, but I can tell you've already got some issues with the fact that your lighting and dishwasher are connected with 7 countertop receptacles.
Click to expand...
He can have 100 receptacles on the circuit and as long as there is no fault the breaker should not trip.
 
petersonra said:
He can have 100 receptacles on the circuit and as long as there is no fault the breaker should not trip.
Click to expand...
I understand that, but that's going into some greater context that might be useful in troubleshooting

I'm curious how old is the house. I'm curious what is the style of the house. I would almost bet there is at least one Junction Box between Is the panel and the 1st opening in the kitchen
 
petersonra said:
What kind of breaker is it? AFCI? GFCI?


You should always have continuity between H and N unless you open the main coming into your house because it is seeing the transformer winding up on the pole outside which is a dead short to the DC resistance reading of your voltmeter..


Can't see your sketch for some reason.

since you replaced the breaker, it probably is not the breaker.

that leaves you with some intermittent fault. very painful to debug sometimes.
Click to expand...
No it isn't a GFCI or AFCI, just the plain Jane Square D breaker

I should have continuity between hot and neutral on an open switch leg that isn't connected to anything that goes back to the panel?

And I don't know why you can't see it. I'll try and upload it again.
 
TJenks048 said:
No it isn't a GFCI or AFCI, just the plain Jane Square D breaker

I should have continuity between hot and neutral on an open switch leg that isn't connected to anything that goes back to the panel?

And I don't know why you can't see it. I'll try and upload it again.
Click to expand...
Why would a switch leg go back to the panel?
 
How do I post the picture on here? It looks like only a picture that has a web address can be uploaded. My sketch is saved to my phone.
 
TJ, welcome to the forum.

Troubleshooting tip:

Connect a high-wattage incandescent bulb in series with the breaker and its wire. That way, you can keep the breaker on while looking and moving things. Full brightness means direct short.

1673477226775.png
If you don't have a helper, connect a receptacle at the breaker instead, and use an extension cord to have the light where you can see it. Or, connect a shop vac or other loud load that you can hear.
 
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James L said:
I understand that, but that's going into some greater context that might be useful in troubleshooting

I'm curious how old is the house. I'm curious what is the style of the house. I would almost bet there is at least one Junction Box between Is the panel and the 1st opening in the kitchen
Click to expand...
1950s. The kitchen was remodeled back in 2013. I became an electrician in 2018. This is my parents house I'm working on. But yes, after I dove into the new electric that they did, it's obvious that a handy man did the electric. The homeruns are old electric, but they have a ground.
 
TJenks048 said:
Yes. Can you tell me how you uploaded your picture? Are you doing it from your phone? I can't seem to find exactly how to do it...
Click to expand...
there is an icon that says attach files. it might be that the file is too large. there is a crazy small size limit on uploaded files. I always have to resize them before I can upload a picture.
 
TJenks048 said:
1950s. The kitchen was remodeled back in 2013. I became an electrician in 2018.
Click to expand...
That's exactly what I thought.

TJenks048 said:
But yes, after I dove into the new electric that they did, it's obvious that a handy man did the electric.
Click to expand...
That's no surprise, either.

Here's the real deal. You probably have a j-box in the basement, crawl space, attic, whatever is the case, with a bad connection.

You can connect a light bulb, space heater, shop vac or whatever you want, but nothing is gonna replace a good ol' fashioned goose chase.

You're most likely going to have to run down a bad connection in a j-box somewhere between the panel and the kitchen
TJenks048 said:
The homeruns are old electric, but they have a ground.
Click to expand...
But you mentioned a switch leg going back to the panel. Is that accurate?
 
James L said:
That's exactly what I thought.


That's no surprise, either.

Here's the real deal. You probably have a j-box in the basement, crawl space, attic, whatever is the case, with a bad connection.

You can connect a light bulb, space heater, shop vac or whatever you want, but nothing is gonna replace a good ol' fashioned goose chase.

You're most likely going to have to run down a bad connection in a j-box somewhere between the panel and the kitchen

But you mentioned a switch leg going back to the panel. Is that accurate?
Click to expand...
No. I just posted my picture. Thanks for the help. For some reason, I had to put my browser on my phone into desktop mode before I saw the option to add the picture.
 
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