Required Kitchen Circuits in Rental Remodel Built in the 1930s

[mxlplx00]

Hi,
I have a new client that owns a small rental home in a desirable beach community. He's between renters and is doing a remodel. I was called in by my friend "the carpenter" to tie in the receptacles for the gas oven, hood (that are being replaced/installed new) and 2 adjacent countertop receptacles.

This place was built in the 1930s. The whole place was run off a 120-volt exterior meter with 2 20-amp Square D breakers on the inside wall. The wiring is all #12 2-wire cable (romex) without a ground. So the whole place basically runs off 2 20-amp circuits.

Somebody installed a Sylvania/Zinsco 14-space service in the front of the house and ran 2 #8s (120-volt) off a 30-amp breaker inside EMT to now feed the old meter socket. The #8 neutral is bonded to the meter socket and the only grounding electrode off the Sylvania is cold water.

Off of the Sylvania they picked up a 240-volt 30-amp dryer, a 15-amp garage receptacle, a 120-volt 20-amp wall heater and of course the 2 original 20-amp circuits that run the original house wiring.

There's a cloths washer with a dryer (240v or gas) and a dishwasher both on the original circuits (the washer and the dishwasher, not the 240-volt dryer). There's the wall heater in the living room (from the Sylvania panel) as the only source of heat for this 2 bedroom unit.

One bedroom has a receptacle with burn marks (probably from a wall heater).

=================

I know the Sylvania should be changed but on a simple inspection it looks fine. It's on a 100-amp main and has 8 extra spaces.

It would be simple to drop out of the Sylvania with any number of circuits and pull them through the raised foundation and feed whatever. I'm thinking at least 2-kitchen counter circuits, dishwasher and the laundry (4 20-amp circuits). And I could get some Connecticut Zinsco breakers until someone springs for a service change. I told him that the hood now requires a dedicated and that he should supply a space heater circuit or something to the bedrooms but that's out of the question.

The owner really expects me to tie in the stuff that I was called out to do (the new hood, gas oven and 2 ktchn counter recpts) to the existing circuit. After exhaustive discussion he has asked for a quote to run 1 new circuit to the new stuff but what do you bet that he wont take it.

So my question (sorry for the essay, I just need to vent) is am I getting overly dramatic here? Should I just tie it in, take my money and be happy, is there any liability for me if I do, are landlords legally allowed to do this or should I continue to push for the 4-dedicated circuits and (respectfully) walk away if he doesn't go with it.

Thanks
Marc

 

[kwired]

The problem code wise isn't the existence of the Sylvania/Zinsco panel as much as it is finding AFCI breakers that are listed to be used in that panel - which AFAIK there is none. Or if you do find some they likely pretty cost prohibitive compared to starting over with something that is currently in production these days, which is mostly items from Siemens, Schneider, Eaton, or ABB and their product brands.

 

[mxlplx00]

I'm aware of the AFCI problem but you can't change that until the service gets changed. My concern is the overloading of the only 2 20-amp circuits serving all of the electrical except the dryer and the wall heater. So they have all the kitchen counter, dishwasher, refrigerator, hood, oven, possibly the cloths washer and whatever else the new tenants want to run (space heaters) on one 20-amp circuit.

If he has me add the new kitchen counter outlets, the oven and hood to this when it's not hard to bring in new circuits... He's doing all comedic improvements that will make it all look very nice. I mean there's a drywall guy on site every day. What's it take to drop in some romex.

 

[norcal]

Add a small panel to accept AFCI's, Zinsco is a lost cause.

 

[synchro]

If he has me add the new kitchen counter outlets, the oven and hood to this when it's not hard to bring in new circuits... He's doing all comedic improvements that will make it all look very nice. I mean there's a drywall guy on site every day. What's it take to drop in some romex.

Sounds like a funny guy.

- Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

 

[ptonsparky]

Legally? Liability? I have no idea.
I would have suggested a lot more.
Walk if declined. Don't even feel bad about it.

 

[kwired]

I'm aware of the AFCI problem but you can't change that until the service gets changed. My concern is the overloading of the only 2 20-amp circuits serving all of the electrical except the dryer and the wall heater. So they have all the kitchen counter, dishwasher, refrigerator, hood, oven, possibly the cloths washer and whatever else the new tenants want to run (space heaters) on one 20-amp circuit.

If he has me add the new kitchen counter outlets, the oven and hood to this when it's not hard to bring in new circuits... He's doing all comedic improvements that will make it all look very nice. I mean there's a drywall guy on site every day. What's it take to drop in some romex.

If it is not going to get inspected you must decide if it is worth taking the chances on leaving it with code violations. If it is getting inspected you must provide AFCI protection or it should not pass inspection. As mentioned install a small sub that will accept AFCI's if you/owner doesn't want to change the existing panel.

 

[Sea Nile]

. I told him that the hood now requires a dedicated

Is this a simple exhaust fan hood?

 

[kwired]

Is this a simple exhaust fan hood?

It requires an individual branch circuit if it is cord and plug connected in 422.16(B)(4) in 2017 NEC anyway. Don't think this has changed but possibly could have moved in 2020 or 2023.

Another situation of NEC turning itself into a design manual IMO. Conversions of those to units containing a microwave I'm sure is part of why they did this, but still is a design thing and shouldn't be a code thing.

 

[growler]

Legally? Liability? I have no idea.

are landlords legally allowed to do this

The only way to know if this project is legal is to figure out what jurisdiction the project is in. Would this project require a permit and inspection?

Here is normally what happens. Homeowner calls up the building department and tells them he is doing a little painting and cosmetic type work and ask if a permit is required and they say no. The homeowner proceeds to rebuild half the house.

 

[mxlplx00]

Thanks guys,
This site helps me get my thoughts together and always has the very best advice.

The place obviously badly needs a service change and I like the sub-panel/AFCI idea but after reading a few articles on inspectapedia:
https://inspectapedia.com/electric/Zinsco_Failure_Reports.php

https://inspectapedia.com/electric/Zinsco_Electrical_Panels.php#Test

https://inspectapedia.com/electric/Zinsco-Failure-Test-Report.php

https://inspectapedia.com/electric/Zinsco_Electrical_Panels.php

I think it would be very risky adding a breaker to the Zinsco for a sub-panel. And reports on this site noting very high failure rates that is greatly increased on heavily loaded circuits. Then there is testing that shows 30% of breakers running at 130% of current rating without tripping.

I now also think it would be very risky for me to add any breakers for new circuits or touching the Zinsko at all so I'm not doing that.

The loads on this place must have been (are) very high and will only increase. There was one small globe light fixture at the far end of the 16' X 9' kitchen/dinning room that was the only light in the whole room (they have probably been putting a 200-watt bulb in there for 50 years). I sold the guy on 6 recessed lights (suggested 8). That was simple enough to install but when I opened the original fixture all of the insulation on the wire turned to powder and landed on my face leaving all of the current carrying conductors bare in the box. I expected some of this and used some heat shrink to fix but this was the worst I've seen of this.

The guy wanted me to replace all of the receptacles and switches with new and I advised against it. Though I have opened a few switches and plugs and they were holding insulation but....

He wanted me to replace all the non-grounding receptacles with grounded ones and I told him the story on that then he wanted me to put a GFCI recpt on the 1st device to accommodate this and I talked him out of that due to nuisance tripping (I just don't want to have to come back to this mess).

I'm going to work up a nice report citing code and the inspectapedia articles and send it off.

I have already roughed in the 4 outlets for the hood, range & 2-counter recpts and tied it to an existing box. When I did it I knew it was the most messed up thing that I've done in over 30 years but I get a lot of work from my carpenter friend (though he told me to walk away if I wanted).

I've been telling the owner how messed this is but he's got kind of a funny attitude. He say's that he's a realtor/builder and owns several small apartment complexes with his partners (that they built). He keeps telling me that they continuously have to call electricians out to replace breakers for nuisance tripping due to (I assume) some conspiracy about excessive code requirements and the writer's owning the manufacturing patents or something. Scary guy.

He say's that the place has been running fine with no complaints from his tenets every time I tell him the breakers will trip...

He just wants to give the place a good superficial face lift without improving the infrastructure and raising the rent through the roof due to it's a popular part of a beach town.

I've got 15 hours into it. It could be the best 15 hours that I ever walked away from. I know that my carpenter friend wouldn't blame me but I feel strongly compelled to to just hook up the 4 boxes that I roughed in and slapping in the recessed light.

haha. Just venting...

Thanks again.

 

[letgomywago]

Thanks guys,
This site helps me get my thoughts together and always has the very best advice.

The place obviously badly needs a service change and I like the sub-panel/AFCI idea but after reading a few articles on inspectapedia:
https://inspectapedia.com/electric/Zinsco_Failure_Reports.php

https://inspectapedia.com/electric/Zinsco_Electrical_Panels.php#Test

https://inspectapedia.com/electric/Zinsco-Failure-Test-Report.php

https://inspectapedia.com/electric/Zinsco_Electrical_Panels.php

I think it would be very risky adding a breaker to the Zinsco for a sub-panel. And reports on this site noting very high failure rates that is greatly increased on heavily loaded circuits. Then there is testing that shows 30% of breakers running at 130% of current rating without tripping.

I now also think it would be very risky for me to add any breakers for new circuits or touching the Zinsko at all so I'm not doing that.

The loads on this place must have been (are) very high and will only increase. There was one small globe light fixture at the far end of the 16' X 9' kitchen/dinning room that was the only light in the whole room (they have probably been putting a 200-watt bulb in there for 50 years). I sold the guy on 6 recessed lights (suggested 8). That was simple enough to install but when I opened the original fixture all of the insulation on the wire turned to powder and landed on my face leaving all of the current carrying conductors bare in the box. I expected some of this and used some heat shrink to fix but this was the worst I've seen of this.

The guy wanted me to replace all of the receptacles and switches with new and I advised against it. Though I have opened a few switches and plugs and they were holding insulation but....

He wanted me to replace all the non-grounding receptacles with grounded ones and I told him the story on that then he wanted me to put a GFCI recpt on the 1st device to accommodate this and I talked him out of that due to nuisance tripping (I just don't want to have to come back to this mess).

I'm going to work up a nice report citing code and the inspectapedia articles and send it off.

I have already roughed in the 4 outlets for the hood, range & 2-counter recpts and tied it to an existing box. When I did it I knew it was the most messed up thing that I've done in over 30 years but I get a lot of work from my carpenter friend (though he told me to walk away if I wanted).

I've been telling the owner how messed this is but he's got kind of a funny attitude. He say's that he's a realtor/builder and owns several small apartment complexes with his partners (that they built). He keeps telling me that they continuously have to call electricians out to replace breakers for nuisance tripping due to (I assume) some conspiracy about excessive code requirements and the writer's owning the manufacturing patents or something. Scary guy.

He say's that the place has been running fine with no complaints from his tenets every time I tell him the breakers will trip...

He just wants to give the place a good superficial face lift without improving the infrastructure and raising the rent through the roof due to it's a popular part of a beach town.

I've got 15 hours into it. It could be the best 15 hours that I ever walked away from. I know that my carpenter friend wouldn't blame me but I feel strongly compelled to to just hook up the 4 boxes that I roughed in and slapping in the recessed light.

haha. Just venting...

Thanks again.

So if worried about the breaker not tripping just use a main breaker subpanel or a backfed breaker on it. Your solution to cave just made them decide you're their guy who'll do what they want in the future. After this no matter what you do you'll want to distance yourself from them sooner than later.

 

[kwired]

I think it would be very risky adding a breaker to the Zinsco for a sub-panel. And reports on this site noting very high failure rates that is greatly increased on heavily loaded circuits. Then there is testing that shows 30% of breakers running at 130% of current rating without tripping.

I now also think it would be very risky for me to add any breakers for new circuits or touching the Zinsko at all so I'm not doing that.

130% isn't extremely high and even breakers that don't have a bad reputation should hold at that level for a certain amount of time, so that testing needs to include a time frame before that figure means much. If they hold somewhat indefinitely at that level that is not good though.

Zinsco isn't all that common around here so I'm not too familiar with them. Seen plenty of FPE though. I wouldn't have too much issue with adding a sub panel that is adjacent to the panel it is fed from though. Like was mentioned even put a main in the sub panel for additional assurance if that makes you feel better about it. About only thing that will "burn the place down" in regards to this sub panel is if somehow the (relatively short length) feeder ends up faulting somehow and the feeder breaker fails to trip.

 

[mxlplx00]

OK, what Kwired & LGMW sounds right. I worked up a price to install a sub-panel off a 70-amp Zinsco breaker with four AFCI/GFCI Siemens breakers for the SABC's, dishwasher and laundry. I didn't put in the bathroom but I'll suggest it. Only thing he wants in the bathroom is for me to change the vanity fixture.

This Inspectapedia site says that 28% failed to trip running at over 20-amps for an hour then at 135% for another hour:
https://inspectapedia.com/electric/Zinsco-Failure-Test-Report.php

I wrote up an evaluation because I don't think the guy will take my offer. His rational is it's a rental and he keeps saying that he never has had a complaint from the tenants here while he gets many service call charges from nuisance trips in his newer apartment complexes.

I really don't care. I've only had one problem with an AFCI and that was on a knob n tube circuit. I hope he doesn't take it.

As I was working on this report I remembered that I found a small SO cord running under the sink from the dish washer, across the cabinets that comes out the other side of the cabinets to be plugged into the counter top receptacle. There's another counter top outlet above the washer that I bet is spliced to that cord also to run the dish washer and plug above it. All on one of the two circuit for the whole place.

The guy was standing right there when I notice it and I pointed it out to him.

 

[letgomywago]

OK, what Kwired & LGMW sounds right. I worked up a price to install a sub-panel off a 70-amp Zinsco breaker with four AFCI/GFCI Siemens breakers for the SABC's, dishwasher and laundry. I didn't put in the bathroom but I'll suggest it. Only thing he wants in the bathroom is for me to change the vanity fixture.

This Inspectapedia site says that 28% failed to trip running at over 20-amps for an hour then at 135% for another hour:
https://inspectapedia.com/electric/Zinsco-Failure-Test-Report.php

I wrote up an evaluation because I don't think the guy will take my offer. His rational is it's a rental and he keeps saying that he never has had a complaint from the tenants here while he gets many service call charges from nuisance trips in his newer apartment complexes.

I really don't care. I've only had one problem with an AFCI and that was on a knob n tube circuit. I hope he doesn't take it.

As I was working on this report I remembered that I found a small SO cord running under the sink from the dish washer, across the cabinets that comes out the other side of the cabinets to be plugged into the counter top receptacle. There's another counter top outlet above the washer that I bet is spliced to that cord also to run the dish washer and plug above it. All on one of the two circuit for the whole place.

The guy was standing right there when I notice it and I pointed it out to him.

You're allowed to use afci gfci devices for the existing circuits. The bathroom doesn't need afci unless local amendments. The bigger issue here is the amount of load you put on those circuits. The hood and DW need their own circuits.

 

[mxlplx00]

afci gfci devices for the existing circuits

You mean like a GFCI/AFCI receptacle for $30 instead of a breaker for $80? I never considered that. Sound's kind of cheesy though, wouldn't it be less reliable, more prone to nuisance trips and not last long?

And I just noticed that:
"all 120-volt outlets in kitchens, dining rooms, family rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets hallways, laundry areas or similar rooms and areas shall provide Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter protection"
Doesn't mention bathrooms. How did they forget the bathroom> haha

 

[letgomywago]

Do you have any issues using a gfi outlet vs breaker? If not then then no difference with an afci device. You can even use mc to the first outlet using older panels. You have multiple options the problem is you did what this guy wanted so don't count on him letting you do it correctly and don't count on him letting an inspector in he probably won't do what he is supposed to do and will call you the next time he wants a non code compliant install done.

 

[Fred B]

The guy was standing right there when I notice it and I pointed it out to him.

Nothing wrong there, "the lights come on", hear that all the time. I've had to walk on customers who refuse to let your professional experience guide the repairs. Level of new work and municipality would dictate the permit requirements.

This guy is better served by a handiman than an electrician. Are you hiring as an electrician? Your license could be at stake if you do a illegal/unsafe/non-compliant installation.

 

[Steve16]

You're the expert. If the owner doesn't like what you are telling them, they can always call someone else or call the town.

 

[jmellc]

Walk away from this. If something happens, the owner will claim you didn't warn him of the problems, Inspections will be all over you for violations and the licensing board will be calling you. If any injuries, you will be sued. You will not have a leg to stand on.