Is NEC a legally enforceable document?

[Dale001289]

Last week, a potential code violation was noted by a third party electrical inspector which could translate into tons of rework and cost for the project. It is currently under review.
However we have also have a ‘culero’ PM who stated the “code book doesn’t matter as long as the drawings are signed by the electrical engineer of record or stamped by an electrical PE”.
He also stated, “most electrical inspectors are ex-electricians who don’t have a college degree and therefore their opinion means nothing”.
I tried to explain to him about the AHJ and the fact our specs clearly state the “the latest version of the NEC shall be followed” but he said none of that mattered.
Is there any truth to his statement?
I always thought the NEC could be used in a court of law and prosecuted based on non-compliance that results in injury, damage or death even if the drawings were signed and stamped by a PE.

 

[infinity]

A stamped drawing with code violations is worthless to an inspector who is required to follow the adopted electrical code. Some locales allow for a variance if the AHJ will except the design but there is no requirement for the AHJ to that.

 

[electrofelon]

The NEC is typically adopted as law by the state or jurisdiction.

Many people seem to think a PE can override the NEC, but there are actually only a couple specific things in the NEC where a PE can decide/engineer something that your average Joe can't.

 

[__dan]

Exactly as above. The NEC is adopted by State law, depending on you jurisdiction. Usually the law will carry penalties, fines considered for civil violations and if it specifies jail time, that's considered a criminal violation. The law states who is responsible for enforcement. In this State the adoption is in the "Public Safety" statutes and carry jail time penalties.

If the NEC is adopted by your contract, that would be considered enforceable also under the terms of your contract.

 

[jaggedben]

The NEC is typically adopted as law by the state or jurisdiction.

Many people seem to think a PE can override the NEC, but there are actually only a couple specific things in the NEC where a PE can decide/engineer something that your average Joe can't.

There is 90.4, second paragraph. And an AHJ is much more likely to accept 'alternative methods' when stamped by a PE. But it is correct that the AHJ is ultimately never under an obligation to do so.

 

[roger]

Is the project in Georgia?

 

[Dale001289]

Is the project in Georgia?

This project is located in California


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[AC\DC]

Arrogant PM
Never liked the ones I use to work with.

 

[growler]

However we have also have a ‘culero’ PM who stated the “code book doesn’t matter as long as the drawings are signed by the electrical engineer of record or stamped by an electrical PE”.
He also stated, “most electrical inspectors are ex-electricians who don’t have a college degree and therefore their opinion means nothing”.

If an electrical inspector noticed items that were believed to be code violations he would be forced to write them up to cover himself from liability.

If the Authority Having Jurisdiction decides these are not important then the inspecter has done his job.

It's not a college degree that counts here it's who has "authority".

 

[Strathead]

This project is located in California


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Dan spelled it out well. I would just like to add, that It is the entity you are working for that adopts the code, so I am specifically thinking about Federal land in a State. I'm not sure if the Federal government has adopted the NEC, but I have been told in the past it hasn't. So, even though it may be in the state, it may not be adopted. Also, the state adoption may allow local jurisdictions to modify the requirements. Either way, your PM is patently incorrect.

 

[acrwc10]

If an electrical inspector noticed items that were believed to be code violations he would be forced to write them up to cover himself from liability.

If the Authority Having Jurisdiction decides these are not important then the inspecter has done his job.

It's not a college degree that counts here it's who has "authority".

The building Official is immune from liability. Anything the deputy building official does is as if the building official did it. the immunity is written into the adopted code in California (and any other state using the ICC). The building code is law in California and a simple "stop work notice" will get the PM's employer on board with that fact. I do agree the correction notice should be provided for clarity too.

 

[ggunn]

He also stated, “most electrical inspectors are ex-electricians who don’t have a college degree and therefore their opinion means nothing”.

Don't I know it but your friend is incorrect that the inspector's opinion carries no weight. Even if the inspector is an undereducated arrogant ignoramus who does not understand the fundamentals of electrical energy (and I know some who qualify), he has the authority to fail you on your inspection, and overturning his decision through channels may be difficult to impossible depending on how the chain of command above him is organized. Taking an issue to court may accomplish nothing but poisoning the well if you ever have any more work in his territory.

 

[gadfly56]

I will echo what others have said here and say what the AHJ decides is what counts. I'm a PE, and I've had plans rejected for overlooking one thing or another. That PM doesn't have a clue, and he's pretty arrogant about it too.

 

[growler]

I'm not sure if the Federal government has adopted the NEC, but I have been told in the past it hasn't. So, even though it may be in the state, it may not be adopted.

Even if this is a federal job they can still require that all work meets minimum standards of some cycle of the NEC by requiring it in the contract. They have to have some inspection criteria.

 

[acrwc10]

I will echo what others have said here and say what the AHJ decides is what counts. I'm a PE, and I've had plans rejected for overlooking one thing or another. That PM doesn't have a clue, and he's pretty arrogant about it too.

Maybe he is an electrician

 

[rambojoe]

This project is located in California


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Is it the I-5 construction on the grapevine?
Sorry, i couldnt resist...

 

[Dale001289]

Is it the I-5 construction on the grapevine?
Sorry, i couldnt resist...

No sir Lol


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[LarryFine]

Don't I know it but your friend is incorrect that the inspector's opinion carries no weight. Even if the inspector is an undereducated arrogant ignoramus who does not understand the fundamentals of electrical energy (and I know some who qualify), he has the authority to fail you on your inspection, and overturning his decision through channels may be difficult to impossible depending on how the chain of command above him is organized. Taking an issue to court may accomplish nothing but poisoning the well if you ever have any more work in his territory.

I have not, and I will never kowtow to an inspector who is flat-out wrong. I have formally, but politely challenged an improper fail four times, and "won" every time.

It has never needed to go farther than asking the inspector to ask his supervisor. To the inspector, even if he still thinks he was right, being over-ridden lets him off the hook.

 

[Dale001289]

I have not, and I will never kowtow to an inspector who is flat-out wrong. I have formally, but politely challenged an improper fail four times, and "won" every time.

It has never needed to go farther than asking the inspector to ask his supervisor. To the inspector, even if he still thinks he was right, being over-ridden lets him off the hook.

Agreed, but in this case the inspector is (probably) correct - PM simply doesn’t want comply since it means an increase in cost


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[LarryFine]

Agreed, but in this case the inspector is (probably) correct - PM simply doesn’t want comply since it means an increase in cost

I don't see any details about the issue.

What is the PM? Project Manager?