EVSE

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Bill Snyder

NEC expert
Location
Denver, Co
Occupation
Electrical Foreman
Does the code require GFCI protection for electric vehicle chargers? Does the manufacturer instructions over rule 210.8(F) since CMP-12 governs 625 and that would modify chapter 2?
 

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
(1) If it is cord and plug connected, then yes per 2020 NEC 625.54. If it is hard-wired and installed outdoors at a dwelling unit on a branch circuit rated 50A or less, then yes per 2020 NEC 210.8(F). [I guess if you installed an isolation transformer at the dwelling unit to create a 2-wire 240V or 208V SDS, then you could supply an outdoor EVSE with the resulting circuit and not need GFCI protection.]

(2) Manufacturer's instructions never overrule the NEC. If the NEC requires X and the instructions say "do not do X" then the instructions are telling you not to install the equipment in jurisdictions subject to the NEC.

Cheers, Wayne
 

Bill Snyder

NEC expert
Location
Denver, Co
Occupation
Electrical Foreman
(1) If it is cord and plug connected, then yes per 2020 NEC 625.54. If it is hard-wired and installed outdoors at a dwelling unit on a branch circuit rated 50A or less, then yes per 2020 NEC 210.8(F). [I guess if you installed an isolation transformer at the dwelling unit to create a 2-wire 240V or 208V SDS, then you could supply an outdoor EVSE with the resulting circuit and not need GFCI protection.]

(2) Manufacturer's instructions never overrule the NEC. If the NEC requires X and the instructions say "do not do X" then the instructions are telling you not to install the equipment in jurisdictions subject to the NEC.

Cheers, Wayne
The listed and labeled equipment states no GFCI protection required when hardwired regardless of location how would that equipment receive the listing if the instructions are a direct code violation?
 

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don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
The listed and labeled equipment states no GFCI protection required when hardwired regardless of location how would that equipment receive the listing if the instructions are a direct code violation?
It never matters when the equipment manufacture tells you to violate the code. All that manufacturer is actually telling you is that you cannot install their equipment in a location where the NEC requires GFCI protection. Nothing in a listing standard, product instructions, or any other document can delete a code requirement...they can add things that are not in the NEC, but they can never delete anything.
You have been down this road on this forum a number of times. You are not going to get a different answer here,
You have stated you are going to submit PIs for clarification. I suggest you do that and wait for the results and not keep coming back her with the same ideas.
 

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
The listed and labeled equipment states no GFCI protection required when hardwired regardless of location how would that equipment receive the listing if the instructions are a direct code violation?
At 60A, there's no conflict if the EVSE is hardwired. 210.8(F) is for 50A and under.

So for smaller branch circuits, the NEC tells you that at a dwelling unit you can only comply with the "no GFCI" instruction when the unit is hardwired at an indoor location. If you need an outdoor 50A (circuit) or smaller EVSE at a dwelling unit, pick a different brand that doesn't have the "no GFCI" instruction.

Cheers, Wayne
 

roger

Moderator
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Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
I have posted this before. We were involved in a project with a large national restaurant/commercial kitchen supplier and a certain manufacturer admitted their listed equipment had problems with GFCI'S.

Even though the NEC required GFCI'S in commercial kitchens they were adamant about not needing to follow code requirements since they were not recommending it. When all was said and done this manufacturer lost a large account.

Don and Wayne have have covered it

After
 

Bill Snyder

NEC expert
Location
Denver, Co
Occupation
Electrical Foreman
It never matters when the equipment manufacture tells you to violate the code. All that manufacturer is actually telling you is that you cannot install their equipment in a location where the NEC requires GFCI protection. Nothing in a listing standard, product instructions, or any other document can delete a code requirement...they can add things that are not in the NEC, but they can never delete anything.
You have been down this road on this forum a number of times. You are not going to get a different answer here,
You have stated you are going to submit PIs for clarification. I suggest you do that and wait for the results and not keep coming back her with the same ideas.
Have you reviewed the language in 625? It says all receptacle outlets shall be GFCI protected no where does the language say the EVSE is connected to an outlet thus the manufacturer's instructions are correct and 210.8(F) doesn't apply like Tommy D stated.
 

Bill Snyder

NEC expert
Location
Denver, Co
Occupation
Electrical Foreman
At 60A, there's no conflict if the EVSE is hardwired. 210.8(F) is for 50A and under.

So for smaller branch circuits, the NEC tells you that at a dwelling unit you can only comply with the "no GFCI" instruction when the unit is hardwired at an indoor location. If you need an outdoor 50A (circuit) or smaller EVSE at a dwelling unit, pick a different brand that doesn't have the "no GFCI" instruction.

Cheers, Wayne
Oh I missed the indoor location reference I read in 625 GFCI protection was only required for receptacle outlets.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Have you reviewed the language in 625? It says all receptacle outlets shall be GFCI protected no where does the language say the EVSE is connected to an outlet thus the manufacturer's instructions are correct and 210.8(F) doesn't apply like Tommy D stated.
Once again, you have no idea of what an outlet is....if the charger can actually charge the EV battery, the charger is connected to an outlet. If you install the EV charger in a garage and hard wire it, there is no requirement for GFCI protection. If you install an EV charger outside at a one of two family dwelling unit, and the circuit is 50 amps or less, GFCI protection is required.
 

Bill Snyder

NEC expert
Location
Denver, Co
Occupation
Electrical Foreman
Once again, you have no idea of what an outlet is....if the charger can actually charge the EV battery, the charger is connected to an outlet. If you install the EV charger in a garage and hard wire it, there is no requirement for GFCI protection. If you install an EV charger outside at a one of two family dwelling unit, and the circuit is 50 amps or less, GFCI protection is required.
Where is 210.8(F) mentioned again? I will wait
 

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Bill Snyder

NEC expert
Location
Denver, Co
Occupation
Electrical Foreman
Once again, you have no idea of what an outlet is....if the charger can actually charge the EV battery, the charger is connected to an outlet. If you install the EV charger in a garage and hard wire it, there is no requirement for GFCI protection. If you install an EV charger outside at a one of two family dwelling unit, and the circuit is 50 amps or less, GFCI protection is required.
Hardwired under the 2023 under your logic it is required class A protection is not required per CMP-12 and that came from Tommy D
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
Hardwired under the 2023 under your logic it is required class A protection is not required per CMP-12 and that came from Tommy D
I am not sure what you are saying here. The code is clear in the 2023 and it appears the same as the 2020 nec. If the unit is outdoors whether hardwired or not the nec requires gfci protection.

An outlet is not only a receptacle. An outlet is any point where you can access power. For instance a lighting outlet is the box in the ceiling that a light attaches to. The junction box or disconnect to the vehicle charger is an outlet.

Outlet
A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment. (CMP-1)


The jb in the picture below is an outlet

1679659015372.png
 

Bill Snyder

NEC expert
Location
Denver, Co
Occupation
Electrical Foreman
I am not sure what you are saying here. The code is clear in the 2023 and it appears the same as the 2020 nec. If the unit is outdoors whether hardwired or not the nec requires gfci protection.

An outlet is not only a receptacle. An outlet is any point where you can access power. For instance a lighting outlet is the box in the ceiling that a light attaches to. The junction box or disconnect to the vehicle charger is an outlet.




The jb in the picture below is an outlet

View attachment 2564544
You are not interpreting this correctly 625.60 states all receptacle outlets require GFCI protection no where does it state protection is required for the outlet assuming there is one this aligns with the manufacturer instructions that states GFCI protection is not required when hardwired.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
You are not interpreting this correctly 625.60 states all receptacle outlets require GFCI protection no where does it state protection is required for the outlet assuming there is one this aligns with the manufacturer instructions that states GFCI protection is not required when hardwired.
Now read what the bold heading is concerned with that you are reading. I believe that is for onboard receptacle used for EVPE
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Where is 210.8(F) mentioned again? I will wait
Please try reading the words I wrote. I VERY clearly said an EV installed outside at a one or two family dwelling on a circuit rated 50 amps or less requires GFCI protection. There is nothing in Article 625 that changes this.
You keep mixing the receptacle GFCI protection for cord and plug connected EV chargers with the outside outlet GFCI protection rule for one and two family dwellings. If you install the hard wired EV charger at an inside location there is no code requirement for GFCI protection and I am sure that is how Tom answered your question. If you install a hardwired EV charger outside on a 60 amp circuit there is no requirement for GFCI protection.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
You are not interpreting this correctly 625.60 states all receptacle outlets require GFCI protection no where does it state protection is required for the outlet assuming there is one this aligns with the manufacturer instructions that states GFCI protection is not required when hardwired.
625.60 only applies to the vehicle manufacturer and is totally unenforceable as the assembly of vehicles is outside the scope This rule simply says that where a vehicle manufacturer installs a receptacle in the vehicle, the manufacture must provide GFCI protection for that receptacle.
625.60 AC Receptacle Outlets Used for EVPE.
AC receptacles installed in electric vehicles and intended to allow for connection of off-board utilization equipment shall comply with 625.60(A) through (D).
 

Bill Snyder

NEC expert
Location
Denver, Co
Occupation
Electrical Foreman
625.60 only applies to the vehicle manufacturer and is totally unenforceable as the assembly of vehicles is outside the scope This rule simply says that where a vehicle manufacturer installs a receptacle in the vehicle, the manufacture must provide GFCI protection for that receptacle.
There would be no way the equipment could receive a listing if the manufacturer did not include the code requirements for compliant installation it says GFCI protection not required when hardwired and that lines up with the language in 625.54.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
There would be no way the equipment could receive a listing if the manufacturer did not include the code requirements for compliant installation it says GFCI protection not required when hardwired and that lines up with the language in 625.54.
The code language says nothing of the sort. The language in 625.54 does not talk about hard wired equipment. It very simply says that if you install a receptacle to supply EV equipment that receptacle must have GFCI protection.

Once again the code does not require GFCI protection for EV equipment installed inside as long as it is hard wired. However as soon as you supply the EV equipment outside at a one or two family dwelling unit, on a circuit rated 50 amps or less GFCI protection is required. Nothing in Article 625 modifies the requirement in 210.8(F). Nothing in UL 2202 says that the equipment must not be supplied via a GFCI.

Nothing in any manufacturer's instruction or product listing standard can delete a requirement of the NEC.
 
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