Non sinusoidal wave circuit/ receptacle not working

Jpflex

Electrician big leagues
Location
Victorville
Occupation
Electrician commercial and residential
The office at my job has a wall I installed an EMT run to single gang metal box. The office is old with some knob and tube and no ground.

I tied into a junction box in attic for feeding power to receptacle from black and white wire. However, the voltage was initially 116 volts a/c on small DVOM meter but would not power vacuum cleaner. The vacuum cleaner LEDS would light up but would dim and flicker no vacuum operation

I did clean up the connection of the wires at attic box as it had old exothermic welding left and carbon remains. Cut off wire and reconnected wire wire nuts and voltage increased to 125 volts to receptacle according to cheaper DVOM but still no operation of vacuum cleaner (which vacuum works on other receptacles)

I thought neutral and power may have been reversed at attic box since black and white were mixed on a wire nut but this did not help either when switched.

Plug in tester only says no ground. Voltmeter and oscilloscope have discrepancy voltages. 37 volts AC on oscilloscope and 116 volts AC showing on cheap DVOM.

I am aware that inductive loads such as laptops can cause waveform distortion but vacuum cleaner works on another circuit with similar distorted waveform and I did disconnect laptops and a/c system but waveforms did not change
 

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jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
Nowadays, I would not be surprised to find the vacuum cleaner distorts the waveform much more than a comparable amount of laptops.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
It sounds like you need to call an electrician. :sneaky:

I suggest using an extension cord plugged into a known-properly-wired receptacle and a solenoid tester to check for real power between each cord slot and each bad-receptacle slot.
 
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Jpflex

Electrician big leagues
Location
Victorville
Occupation
Electrician commercial and residential
I don't know what is wrong. I do know that this is not a job that needs an oscilloscope. Larry has the right idea. Start checking for real power and real problems in the wiring, not distorted wave forms.
I am looking at all aspects. Most electricians will not even do this
 

__dan

Banned
Run a direct line back to the panel for the vac outlet. Especially with old wiring, it may be OK for small convenience loads but for heavy appliances and tools power I would usually ignore the old wiring and add a new circuit.

Whatever was tapped into in the attic could have been anything. If everything was known working I would put it back the way it was. It could have been a switch leg that was tied into.

Check the source panel to see if the Voltage is solid there. I highly doubt you would be able to get that wave form reading duplicated anywhere else in the circuit. There was some unusual arrangement to get that reading and I doubt you could reproduce that waveform if you went hunting for it and tried to.

If you are able to reproduce that waveform display at the panel or any other regular outlet, then you have a problem. My guess is you will not be able to reproduce that meter waveform display at the panel, and there were some very special circumstances that gave you that as shown. I would guess you just tapped in at the wrong place and likewise the meter was connected to show you something, very unusual, possibly an artifact of something that may be normal, but due to (the improper) way the meter was connected.

If that waveforms appears at a place you are reading the bus supply Voltage, that is bad. Making the waveform appear that way but when it is not the bus Voltage but due to some (probably not reproducible) inconsequential connection of the meter. I suspect the meter is not showing you what you want to see, which is the bus Voltage. It is probably connected and showing something else.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
When it comes to this kind of troubleshooting the old saying goes, "When you hear hoofbeats think horses, not some exotic African animal like a giraffe".
My old saying is check what's easiest to check first. Make sure the hot and neutral really are.
 

Speedskater

Senior Member
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
Occupation
retired broadcast, audio and industrial R&D engineering
I think that it is a complicated phantom voltage problem. Try putting a 100 Watt resistive load on the far end. The waveform looks like leakage current going thru LEDs or other diodes.
 

busman

Senior Member
Location
Northern Virginia
Occupation
Master Electrician / Electrical Engineer
Nowadays, I would not be surprised to find the vacuum cleaner distorts the waveform much more than a comparable amount of laptops.
Distortion from various types of loads is generally in the current waveform. This is reflected back as what is usually small voltage variations thru the impedance of the serving transformer. A good example is the "chopped" current waveforms of modern electronic dimmers.

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Mark
 
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