600A Residential panel

D

Duneit

Member
Location
Sacramento
Occupation
Electrician
California is pushing the all electric agenda fiercly. Our local utility provider, SMUD, doesn't understand why I need a 600A panel for a 7,000 sq. ft. home that has 5 all electric HVAC units, oven, cooktop, water heating, pool, spa is heated with electric hybrid heater, 4 EV chargers, 6 patio heaters that draw 20 amps each, etc... Anyone else having problems with their utility provider when trying to load calc a large home that's mandated to be all electric? California has taken away all gas credits for title 24 energy compliance so that we have to use electricity for everything.
 
infinity said:
If the load calculation requires 600 amps what is their issue?
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They aren't equipped for a 600 amp panel. They are going to have to upgrade their infrastructure to do it. You'd think there must be an engineer at the utility company that saw this coming with their all electric mandates.
 
Side note. Live on the east coast but wonder how California is going to appear to old dumb me to do the impossible. They were supposed to close their last nuclear plant without a replacement then in 9 years no new homes will be allowed to have natural gas then 15 years after that all homes can not have natural gas. Even if a lot of customers installed Solar Panels appears that most houses will be totally all electric and if they own two EV'S might need 3 or 400 amp services. So wonder how foot dragging Ultility companies will even come close to providing additional loads. Heard that 330,000 moved out of California last year so that might help reduce power consumption.
 
Here you can put in whatever size you want, the poco decides what they want to bring in. I’m waiting on an inspector right now on an 800 amp single phase service. POCO came out and looked at it, and decided they are staying with the 4/0 Al drop, and 25 KVA transformer up the street that also feeds two houses and a restaurant. Had another job that went from a 400 amp to a 1200 amp single phase service, building had an addition twice the size of the original building. The load before the addition was right at 400 amps at high noon. The transformer blew up the next summer from severe overload. Put in a 1600 amp 480 volt service earlier this year, poco wanted to put in a 500 kva transformer, but put in a 750 kva for an extra fee. Just one machine in the building was 600 amps full load, and they have another they are putting in that is 180 amps.
 
Duneit said:
They aren't equipped for a 600 amp panel. They are going to have to upgrade their infrastructure to do it. You'd think there must be an engineer at the utility company that saw this coming with their all electric mandates.
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Let's not make this political but this is the problem with the mandates. If the POCO needs to upgrade their infrastructure to make this work it sounds like that's their problem.
 
infinity said:
Let's not make this political but this is the problem with the mandates. If the POCO needs to upgrade their infrastructure to make this work it sounds like that's their problem.
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The POCO is charging the owner $tens of thousands to upgrade their infrastructure and it could take a year with the nationwide transformer shortage.
 
augie47 said:
With POCO size does NOT matter... they will still feed it with a 25kw pot and #2 AL :)

(Hillbilly beat me to it)
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Yeah, at least I got them to upgrade from #2 to a 4/0! It was an old 600 amp service I ripped out, and put back a new 600, then the new tenant downstairs wanted a 400 amp service, so I had to do it again. At least I thought ahead, and built the meter group where I could upgrade! LOL!
 
Duneit said:
The POCO is charging the owner $tens of thousands to upgrade their infrastructure and it could take a year with the nationwide transformer shortage.
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Welcome to the politics of energy. If the house had natural gas would this even be an issue?
 
infinity said:
Welcome to the politics of energy. If the house had natural gas would this even be an issue?
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No problem at all if natural gas. 400A would be more than sufficient. All these new heat pumps are having many electronics issues. They can't even make it out of their 1 year warranty without something broken.
 
put is an 800 amp switchgear with only 6 breaker spaces and no main breaker, they can figure out what to feed it with. If you were upgrading from 100 to 200 amps they would be telling you "we need to upgrade the transformer, that will take 9 moths to a year".
 
infinity said:
In the grand scheme of things if this person can afford a 7000 square foot house no one is really going to feel sorry for them if they have to pay for infrastructure upgrades. The issue is not the POCO it's the people in Sacramento.
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I have to agree. I know this is America we we generally get whatever we want and can (at least for now) consume as much as we want, but sorry I think these people can pay 30k or whatever for the utility upgrades for their unsustainably overly lavish lifestyle.
 
infinity said:
The issue is not the POCO it's the people in Sacramento.
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Curiously enough, in the OP's case the "people in Sacramento" are the PoCo, SMUD is the Sacramento Municipal Utility District. Very different from the state government but still in the same city. California has some fairly large muni power companies- Sacramento, Palo Alto, Santa Clara (which even has their own generation), LADPW, Alameda, etc.
 
Duneit said:
They aren't equipped for a 600 amp panel. They are going to have to upgrade their infrastructure to do it. You'd think there must be an engineer at the utility company that saw this coming with their all electric mandates.
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And I find that rather hard to believe. The actual load at that house won't really be that much. If they are truly having an issue supplying that house, that line was probably already over capacity anyway.
 
electrofelon said:
And I find that rather hard to believe. The actual load at that house won't really be that much. If they are truly having an issue supplying that house, that line was probably already over capacity anyway.
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No municipalities in our area provide for anything more than a 400A panel, even the largest utility in the country, PG&E
. Did you read how many items are electric? Do you know how much energy heat pumps draw? Yes, this house will draw more than 400 amps at various times, especially in the winter when heating their pool, spa, using patio heaters while entertaining, cooking at the same time and they might even be charging an EV at the same time. Stay in a state where they allow gas.
 
electrofelon said:
I have to agree. I know this is America we we generally get whatever we want and can (at least for now) consume as much as we want, but sorry I think these people can pay 30k or whatever for the utility upgrades for their unsustainably overly lavish lifestyle.
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If gas were available to use, they would not need this panel. Just because you can afford to spend money on things you like, I bet you try your best not to over spend on those items. We all try to save money whenever possible, even the wealthy believe it or not. How do you think they became wealthy?
 
Duneit said:
No municipalities in our area provide for anything more than a 400A panel, even the largest utility in the country, PG&E
. Did you read how many items are electric? Do you know how much energy heat pumps draw? Yes, this house will draw more than 400 amps at various times, especially in the winter when heating their pool, spa, using patio heaters while entertaining, cooking at the same time and they might even be charging an EV at the same time. Stay in a state where they allow gas.
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The actual load is likely dramatically less than you think it will be, I guarantee the actual load will not be anywhere near 400 amps. I don't see what panel size has to do with it. I've never come across utility that cares what the panel size or main breaker size is.
 
electrofelon said:
The actual load is likely dramatically less than you think it will be, I guarantee the actual load will not be anywhere near 400 amps. I don't see what panel size has to do with it. I've never come across utility that cares what the panel size or main breaker size is.
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You must have a higher degree of education than the electrical engineer who performed the calculations. I will not go against what an engineer says to try and save a buck. If I do it to specifications, and there is a problem, the engineer has to answer not me.
 
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