Surge Protectors on House panels

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Josabrock77

Member
hey guys I’m an EC in RI , we wire a lot of 2+3 family dwellings. Recently I have been in a battle w local AHJ they are requiring us to put a surge protector on the house panel. I have maintained that the code does not require a SPD on a house panel- the code says all dwelling unit services need SPD. The house panel provides power to unfinished basement and hallways, which by definition are NOT “dwelling units” they(ahj) say the whole house is a dwelling unit, and they are not willing to budge . I’ve reached out to the state inspector, any thoughts ???
 
PaulMmn

PaulMmn

Senior Member
Location
Union, KY, USA
Occupation
EIT - Engineer in Training, Lafayette College
Isn't the protection worth the cost? Current price for Square D - HOM250PSPD Homeline Whole House Surge Protection Device, 50kA, 120/240V, 1-Phase, No Wiring, Plug-On Neutral is $105 on Amazon for panels 2014 or newer. a year ago it was $180.
 
J

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
LarryFine said:
One could say that "Dwelling, Two-Family" and "Dwelling, Multifamily" are calling the entire building "Dwelling."

But, I do agree that it is not clearly spelled out.
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I agree the building is a dwelling. However the area served by the house panel is not a "dwelling unit".
 
LarryFine

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
jim dungar said:
I agree the building is a dwelling. However the area served by the house panel is not a "dwelling unit".
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Looking again, I agree with you: SPDs are required for each "Dwelling Unit," not the entire dwelling structure.

The code says what it says.
 
junkhound

junkhound

Senior Member
Location
Renton, WA
Occupation
EE, power electronics specialty
Trivial cost to piss off inspector? I say bend over, kiss his (more pleasant if a her) and say yessir of yes mam.

I even kissed the ass of local inspector who wanted a full 60A service for a 120 sq ft shed at a church doing volunteer work, I think 'cause I'm retired and not union? 60A feeder to feed a light switch and 2 outlets! I did tell him it was a bit of overkill, but kissed ass anyway. Had already used 3/4 conduit for convienience, my delta cost basically one 60A 240 breaker ad 200 feet of 6AWG copper (more than your $180 SPD that)!
 
LarryFine

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
junkhound said:
Trivial cost to piss off inspector? I say bend over, kiss his (more pleasant if a her) and say yessir of yes mam.
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Not me! I never kowtow when I know it's wrong; it sets a bad precedent for it to be repeated.

In my opinion, it's just as wrong to fail an installation incorrectly as it is to pass one incorrectly.

I have formally challenged inspectors for fails four times over the years, and "won" every time.

Always civil and polite, always a discussion not an argument, usually involved a head inspector.

I'd rather have inspectors see I know the code than think that I'll blindly obey their every whim.
 
J

Josabrock77

Member
junkhound said:
Trivial cost to piss off inspector? I say bend over, kiss his (more pleasant if a her) and say yessir of yes mam.

I even kissed the ass of local inspector who wanted a full 60A service for a 120 sq ft shed at a church doing volunteer work, I think 'cause I'm retired and not union? 60A feeder to feed a light switch and 2 outlets! I did tell him it was a bit of overkill, but kissed ass anyway. Had already used 3/4 conduit for convienience, my delta cost basically one 60A 240 breaker ad 200 feet of 6AWG copper (more than your $180 SPD that)!
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Well I’m not trying to piss anyone off, the point is , where does it stop?? He’s enforcing something that is not technically enforceable, so under your theory I should just kiss his but and put it in??? We do about 50 multi family’s per year, it’s a few thousand bucks… not to mention I’m dealing with these contractors that want everything at the cheapest possible price. And more importantly it’s principle..
 
J

Josabrock77

Member
LarryFine said:
Not me! I never kowtow when I know it's wrong; it sets a bad precedent for it to be repeated.

In my opinion, it's just as wrong to fail an installation incorrectly as it is to pass one incorrectly.

I have formally challenged inspectors for fails four times over the years, and "won" every time.

Always civil and polite, always a discussion not an argument, usually involved a head inspector.

I'd rather have inspectors see I know the code than think that I'll blindly obey their every whim.
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Totally agree LarryFine… where does it stop… so the next time the want to make their own rules or interpretation it might cost a lot more than 60$
 
J

Josabrock77

Member
PaulMmn said:
Isn't the protection worth the cost? Current price for Square D - HOM250PSPD Homeline Whole House Surge Protection Device, 50kA, 120/240V, 1-Phase, No Wiring, Plug-On Neutral is $105 on Amazon for panels 2014 or newer. a year ago it was $180.
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Sure if the contractor wants to pay for it, but they want the CHEAPEST possible price .. we do 45-55 multi family’s a year, @ 105$ that adds up .. plus not to mention the unfinished basement and common hallway are NOT “dwelling units”.. so under your theory we should arc fault EVERY SINGLE CIRCUIT in the entire house??? We should install afci’s for bathrooms, unfinished basements Furnaces, etc.. correct??? They are only 60$ ea the protection is worth the cost right???
 
C

Choice_Gorilla

Senior Member
Location
New England
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
Might be a stupid question but the house panel has its own meter right? I feel like that’s where the division is. It effectively has its own service, and that service is separate from the dwelling unit services, so it shouldn’t be treated as such.
 
T

texie

Senior Member
Location
Fort Collins, Colorado
Occupation
Electrician, Contractor, Inspector
I tend to think that the code language would not require an SPD for the house metered panel.
Related to this discussion, I would add that in the 2023 edition a multi family building now requires a SPD in the panel of each unit-not just, say, a single SPD at the main of the meter center. This is a pretty significant change. So if the EC thought he could use one SPD at the service in a hundred unit building he will now need 100 of them.
 
P

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
texie said:
I tend to think that the code language would not require an SPD for the house metered panel.
Related to this discussion, I would add that in the 2023 edition a multi family building now requires a SPD in the panel of each unit-not just, say, a single SPD at the main of the meter center. This is a pretty significant change. So if the EC thought he could use one SPD at the service in a hundred unit building he will now need 100 of them.
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The SPD manufacturers must be doing well. I can't even begin to imagine what drove the SPD requirements other than greed.
 
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