Waivers for AFCI?

[NoahsArc]

I do residential service, and permits are often eschewed.
Some localities have amended out AFCI coverage thankfully, but others haven't.
I think the reasoning behind also eschewing AFCI breakers has been done on MH enough, I won't get into that further. Adding thousands onto a job cost for an unpermitted job is usually going to kill the bid there.
If the acting GC (HO) decides they do not want AFCIs installed and are also opting to not pull a permit, would a signed waiver help in the worst case? (I know it does nothing if city comes after you for not pulling a permit)

I will of course ask a lawyer when time comes to draft one, but I'm curious if anyone here has already had that conversation?

Something like:

I, _________, the acting GC have been informed by my licensed electrical subcontractor, NOAHSARC, that AFCI protection is required by the current code as adopted by the city. I have been informed by my EC that these serve to reduce fire risks in houses through the sensing of fire-causing arcs along the house wiring and any plug-in devices and power cords. I have been directed to the [some industry shill paper online.pdf] and [NEC council decision regarding the great bilkening.html] by my EC for further reference. Despite this, I have decided to direct my EC subcontractor to not install AFCI protection for the sake of reducing costs and potential nuisance issues post-insall.

More concerned about liability.

 

[norcal]

I do residential service, and permits are often eschewed.
Some localities have amended out AFCI coverage thankfully, but others haven't.
I think the reasoning behind also eschewing AFCI breakers has been done on MH enough, I won't get into that further. Adding thousands onto a job cost for an unpermitted job is usually going to kill the bid there.
If the acting GC (HO) decides they do not want AFCIs installed and are also opting to not pull a permit, would a signed waiver help in the worst case? (I know it does nothing if city comes after you for not pulling a permit)

I will of course ask a lawyer when time comes to draft one, but I'm curious if anyone here has already had that conversation?

Something like:

More concerned about liability.

Admitting that your doing work that does not comply with code and leaving a paper trail? Think about that, not a fan of AFCI's but code is code.

 

[readydave8]

Extending logic

Have HO sign waiver when I want to do any violation

 

[ramsy]

More concerned about liability.

Lawyers don't recommend an admission of guilt.

Have HO sign waiver when I want to do any violation

How does that protect property owners from insurance non-renewal & cancellation?

 

[ramsy]

If the acting GC (HO) decides they do not want AFCIs installed and are also opting to not pull a permit, would a signed waiver help

Permits & inspection were avoided by hacks long before AFCI came along.

Never let the General contractor bid the electrical. Solicit bids from separate Electrical Contractors.

GC's charge more to screw owners with construction defects & fire hazards, than electrical contractors with permits.

 

[ramsy]

reasoning behind also eschewing AFCI breakers

Most license boards recommend at least 3 bids from their searchable list of licensees by zip code.

If owners check the permit portfolio for proof of passing residential electrical inspections, people are more likely to find the electrical contractor (EC) who knows how to select & install AFCI equipment under warranty.

Residential EC's with a history of permits or AFCI's under their belt, are more likely to select and warranty AFCI equipment, and pass all inspections, without letting their helpers bury fire hazards behind walls.

 

[Doc13067]

If an arc causes a fire and AFCI was required and you didn’t put one in, will a waiver protect you? Of course not. The HO will be quick to sue for not following the NEC in your install. If it’s code you have to do it and if you do it and there is an arc that causes a fire you are protected because you followed the code. Never deviate on this. If I change a receptacle or alter a circuit in any way I put in an AFCI and I haven’t priced myself out of work.

 

[ptonsparky]

We never removed any unless it was to replace with a newer version.

 

[roger]

This is actually along the lines of the old "the inspector passed it".
Whether the inspector passed it knowing it was wrong or something he missed, it does not relieve the EC of being responsible for code compliance and ultimately being held accountable.

 

[electrofelon]

i would think you are much better off from a liability standpoint to NOT DOCUMENT that you didnt install them. IF something actually happened, you could just say you installed them and someone else must have taken them out. How can they prove it was you?

 

[ramsy]

How can they prove it was you?

If your that incompetent, just do your hack jobs in places that amend out the safety devices.

 

[Seven-Delta-FortyOne]

AFCI‘s aren’t safety devices, they are money makers for the entitled.

But regardless, they are the Code, and as long as we wish to play this game, we must play by the rules of the game, no matter how stupid they are.

And no, a waiver admitting you violated the Code will not protect you. You are viewed as the professional, and will be held to that standard.

It’s unlikely nearly to the point of impossibility that you will be found out because the lack of an AFCI caused a fire. There is zero evidence the pieces of crap actually prevent anything but sanity, but you’ll could be caught some other way.

 

[electrofelon]

If your that incompetent, just do your hack jobs in places that amend out the safety devices.

I dont follow what you are saying here. I never said I leave them out. I Am just saying that from a legal standpoint - and any and every lawyer will tell you this - never admit you did something illegal, never plead guilty , Never say to the cop you know why he pulled you over, DENY DENY DENY, or better yet do not say anything at all other than "I will not be answering any questions" to a law enforcement person.

 

[mtnelect]

I worked in Law Enforcement for a while. When I graduated from the Sheriffs Academy, I did my "Time" in Mens Central Jail. Then went to patrol school and was assigned to a Sub Station. If you are straight with the officer, things go pretty smoothly.

 

[ramsy]

I dont follow what you are saying here.

Joint and Several Liability presumes contractors are guilty until proven innocent.

The courts see you coming. Lack of documentation, and denial is anticipated.

 

[ramsy]

AFCI‘s aren’t safety devices

Just like RAID and the Roach Motel, AFCI's are property owners best Safety Device against hacks & General Contractors.

 

[hbiss]

AFCI's are property owners best Safety Device against hacks & General Contractors.

Care to explain that?? Are you saying that they will show up crossed neutrals and neutral to grounds? Because that's the only thing they are good for.

-Hal

 

[kwired]

Lawyers don't recommend an admission of guilt.

How does that protect property owners from insurance non-renewal & cancellation?

It doesn't. If they are reminded of this possibility, even if you tell them they are welcome to remove the AFCI's themselves after your inspection is completed it still is possible their insurance could do this if discovered. More likely if investigating after a claim event shows this protection was removed they could deny paying claims as well.

 

[NoahsArc]

Well it was an idea...
Apparently a bad one, as I figured, but worth a shot.

 

[electrofelon]

If you are straight with the officer, things go pretty smoothly.

Being "straight " is the last thing you want to do if you are being questioned by law enforcement. They are not your friend, they will not "go easy" on you for cooperating, they do not want to do what is best for you. They will likely say all that, but their goal is to make the government's case against you as strong as possible and your position as weak as possible.