314.27

[Rick 0920]

Here in Jacksonville, a lot of houses have failing inspections because of the use of plastic nail-on or bracket ceiling outlet boxes in habitable rooms. These are "cookie cutter" tract homes where they install lightweight fixtures in these habitable rooms because the print calls for these fixtures to be installed and the boxes are acceptable for such use. Can someone provide me a better explanation for the shaded text this section? "Location acceptable for the installation of ceiling fans"???? That's an ambiguous term for me. If I installed a plastic ceiling outlet box in a corner of a bedroom 3' from each wall for the purpose of a reading light, an inspector could say that the homeowner could install a small 36" ceiling fan in its place? That to me would not be a location acceptable for a ceiling fan! Can I brace for a fan and use a pancake box or 4/0 box that uses 8-32 screws and would that meet the requirements of #2 in the shaded text? Do we just have to use fan-rated boxes in bedrooms and living/family rooms from now on?

I, Dennis, am taking the liberty to include the text from the 2020

(C) Boxes at Ceiling-Suspended (Paddle) Fan Outlets.

Outlet boxes or outlet box systems used as the sole support of a ceiling-suspended (paddle) fan shall be listed, shall be marked by their manufacturer as suitable for this purpose, and shall not support ceiling-suspended (paddle) fans that weigh more than 32 kg (70 lb). For outlet boxes or outlet box systems designed to support ceiling-suspended (paddle) fans that weigh more than 16 kg (35 lb), the required marking shall include the maximum weight to be supported.
Outlet boxes mounted in the ceilings of habitable rooms of dwelling occupancies in a location acceptable for the installation of a ceiling-suspended (paddle) fan shall comply with one of the following:

• (1)
  Listed for the sole support of ceiling-suspended (paddle) fans
• (2)
  An outlet box complying with the applicable requirements of 314.27 and providing access to structural framing capable of supporting of a ceiling-suspended (paddle) fan bracket or equivalent

 

[Rick 0920]

They are even failing jobs for the smoke detectors installed in the bedrooms because the text was changed in the 2020 NEC. In 2017, it said "switched conductors" but that was removed in 2020.

 

[augie47]

This wording in 314.27 certainly opens Pandora's Box leaving a lot of rum for judgement calls,.

What Code Section are you referencing on the smoke detectors ?

 

[gene6]

"Location acceptable for the installation of ceiling fans"???? That's an ambiguous term for me.

There was a unbelievable case up in New England over a ceiling fan that fell and injured someone, I think she got 3/4 of a mil.

They are even failing jobs for the smoke detectors installed in the bedrooms because the text was changed in the 2020 NEC. In 2017, it said "switched conductors" but that was removed in 2020.

For the smoke detectors use a rectangular outlet box not a round 'lighting' box, then it cant be considered lighting.

 

[Rick 0920]

This wording in 314.27 certainly opens Pandora's Box leaving a lot of rum for judgement calls,.

What Code Section are you referencing on the smoke detectors ?

Gus, they are failing them on rough-in inspections citing 314.27 where it says: "Outlet boxes mounted in the ceilings of habitable rooms of dwelling occupancies in a location acceptable for the installation of a ceiling-suspended (paddle) fan shall comply with the following:" 2017 used the verbiage "Where spare, separately switched, ungrounded conductors are provided to a ceiling-mounted out let box........" The 2020 NEC has removed "spare. separately switched conductors...." so now certain inspectors are taking advantage of that stating that if you installed your smoke detector box far enough away from the wall where they deem the location "acceptable" for a fan.

 

[Rick 0920]

There was a unbelievable case up in New England over a ceiling fan that fell and injured someone, I think she got 3/4 of a mil.


For the smoke detectors use a rectangular outlet box not a round 'lighting' box, then it cant be considered lighting.

The wording in the 2020 NEC states "outlet box" So the type of box installed is irrelevant here. If the inspector thinks you've installed the box where a ceiling fan could be installed, 314.27 would require a fan-rated box.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I included the text of 314.27 in Ricks first post.


Rick here is the enhanced content written to help explain the section. There are pancake boxes that are listed for fans

Outlet boxes mounted in ceilings of habitable rooms in dwelling units must be a box listed for ceiling (paddle) fan support or comply with 314.27(C) where a ceiling (paddle) fan either will be installed initially or might be installed in the future. Outlet boxes specifically listed to support ceiling-mounted paddle fans are available, as are several alternative and retrofit methods that can provide suitable support for a paddle fan. The following exhibits illustrate two methods of supporting a fan from an outlet box listed for fan support.
The exhibit below shows a listed outlet box used as the sole support of a ceiling-suspended (paddle) fan. Note the two clamps on the perimeter of the box that will support a fixture.

(Courtesy of the International Association of Electrical Inspectors)

The next exhibit shows a box listed for supporting a ceiling-suspended (paddle) fan (35 pounds or less).

(Courtesy of Hubbell Incorporated)

In new residential construction, it is common to provide a wall-mounted switch with wiring to allow for the future installation of paddle fans. Such installations are required to have an outlet box or outlet box system that is listed for the sole support of a fan.

 

[Rick 0920]

I included the text of 314.27 in Ricks first post.


Rick here is the enhanced content written to help explain the section. There are pancake boxes that are listed for fans

Thank you Dennis. Where the problem lies is that contractors are installing non-metallic round nail-on boxes for lightweight luminaires (over a bar per se) The habitable room has a fan-rated box/boxes in the center of the room. These other boxes installed are intended for smoke detectors and ceiling luminaires definitely off center of the room. But the inspectors are classifying these locations as "acceptable for the installation of ceiling fans" It's the ambiguous verbiage of this section that is causing problems. I would like to see it changed to say something like: "Outlet boxes installed in ceilings in the middle third of habitable room ceilings must comply with .......) In most places in the NEC, we are given an exact measurement for something. For example, floor boxes. They don't count as the required number of receptacle outlets unless they are located within 18" of the wall. 210.52 (A)(3) I think the wording of 314.27 leaves too much room for the opinion of the AHJ

 

[infinity]

Inspectors need to exercise some common sense. If there are three ceiling boxes roughed in for pendant fixtures over a bar then no one is going to be installing a ceiling fan there. Even someone with a low IQ can figure that out. The wording of this code section is pretty lousy.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Thank you Dennis. Where the problem lies is that contractors are installing non-metallic round nail-on boxes for lightweight luminaires (over a bar per se) The habitable room has a fan-rated box/boxes in the center of the room. These other boxes installed are intended for smoke detectors and ceiling luminaires definitely off center of the room. But the inspectors are classifying these locations as "acceptable for the installation of ceiling fans" It's the ambiguous verbiage of this section that is causing problems. I would like to see it changed to say something like: "Outlet boxes installed in ceilings in the middle third of habitable room ceilings must comply with .......) In most places in the NEC, we are given an exact measurement for something. For example, floor boxes. They don't count as the required number of receptacle outlets unless they are located within 18" of the wall. 210.52 (A)(3) I think the wording of 314.27 leaves too much room for the opinion of the AHJ

I don't like to bad mouth inspectors unless it is Gus(Augie) who we are talking about. haha, however these inspectors need to get a life if they are calling a smoke detector outlet a possible fan outlet. For what purpose are they doing that? What are they trying to accomplish?

Imo, someone needs to take this to a higher authority and get these guys straightened out. Even Gus wouldn't fail a smoke alarm box because it isn't fan rated.

Btw, I always install my smokes at 12" off center of the room door.

 

[Eddie702]

It's just another example of a poorly written code. I was at a code seminar years ago and the instructor said, "the code didn't say you COULDN'T mount a panel on a ceiling until someone did"

How big and how many words must be written in the code to prevent people from doing the wrong things? You can't make the code large enough to prohibit everything that could happen.

So now because of that you have inspectors with "0" common sense. Common sense is not part of the code unfortunately.

An inspector should be able to look in a room and figure where a fan "might" be installed without being overly restrictive.

Requiring someone to put a fan box in for a smoke is just asinine.

I suppose they would require a fan box in the ceiling of a 5 x 8 bathroom or a clothes closet.

I suppose the next step would be to require all ceiling boxes to be fan rated.

If a HO puts a fan on a plastic box the liability and the fan should fall on them.

 

[Frank DuVal]

then it cant be considered lighting.

Why? I can certainly mount a light fixture on that! I mount light fixtures to device boxes all the time using the fixture's mounting bracket.

 

[raberding]

too funny - "...the fan should fall on them."

 

[gene6]

The wording in the 2020 NEC states "outlet box" So the type of box installed is irrelevant here. If the inspector thinks you've installed the box where a ceiling fan could be installed, 314.27 would require a fan-rated box.

A rectangular 1-gang box used for lighting would be a violation of 314.27(A)(2) therefore it could never be considered a location where a fan could be installed.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I have had 3 fans fall in my career but none because of my install. In one case the fan fell, that I installed, as the homeowner was walking under it. She caught it and it was dangling by the wires when I got there. The metal bracket that holds that ball on the pipe extension had fatigued and just broke.

Another was just the fan blades and that was at my home. Came home from a small vacation and two blades were on the floor. I touched the other 2 on the fan and they broke off in my hand. Again metal fatigue on the fan bracket.

The last one was a 36" fan that was installed on a pop in round box that was there for years before this owner bought the place. She was there about 3 years and the old work box finally worked its way thru the sheetrock. The fan was hanging from the nm cable. No I did not install the pop in box. haha

My point is there are a few ways a fan can fall. I have always mounted a 2x6 with a 4" octagon for fans. Back then we could independently support the fan from the box. Looks like we can't do that anymore. Makes sense since you know that a homeowner may replace the fan and wont use the independent attachment method.

 

[gene6]

Back then we could independently support the fan from the box. Looks like we can't do that anymore. Makes sense since you know that a homeowner may replace the fan and wont use the independent attachment method.

Thats a shame when did they get rid of the independent support method? I often use a pancake on a 2X4 and shoot a couple of lag bolts thru to the 2X4.

 

[gene6]

OK just looked at the new code 2023, and I think what I do (2X4 above box) is still allowed.
314.27 (C) Says 'one of the following'
and item (2) "Installed so as to allow direct access through the box to structural framing."
My take is a fan box is not required if your lighting boxes have a 2X4 behind them.

 

[LarryFine]

An inspector should be able to look in a room and figure where a fan "might" be installed without being overly restrictive.

Requiring someone to put a fan box in for a smoke is just asinine.

Ask the inspector:
If the smoke detector is required, and you hung a fan there, where would the required smoke detector go?

 

[rc/retired]

Life is funny, skies are sunny, bees make honey, Whatever, I have 5 ceiling fans hanging from 1977 era Allied fiberglass boxes.
They have been hanging there for 35 years. No problem!
I can only hope inspectors understand real world applications.

Ron

 

[Rick 0920]

I don't like to bad mouth inspectors unless it is Gus(Augie) who we are talking about. haha, however these inspectors need to get a life if they are calling a smoke detector outlet a possible fan outlet. For what purpose are they doing that? What are they trying to accomplish?

Imo, someone needs to take this to a higher authority and get these guys straightened out. Even Gus wouldn't fail a smoke alarm box because it isn't fan rated.

Btw, I always install my smokes at 12" off center of the room door.

I agree Dennis. And yes, we can badmouth Gus all we want. He seems to love it! This is just a case of an inspector throwing his weight around trying to show off his knowledge of the NEC by taking advantage of poor wording of the Code. I pointed out the same thing not long ago regarding 210.70 where it states that a switch needs to be "near" the entrance to the room. If an inspector has a problem with a certain contractor, he can make their lives hell by citing these sections that are so poorly written.