• We will be performing upgrades on the forums and server over the weekend. The forums may be unavailable multiple times for up to an hour each. Thank you for your patience and understanding as we work to make the forums even better.

Question on test.

AC\DC

Senior Member
Location
Florence,Oregon,Lane
Occupation
EC
Taking courses on Solar energy International. Got a question wrong and don't know if I am right or they are here it is
I chose White or gray


The insulation on a functionally grounded conductor must be:
Select one:
white or gray
green or bare copper
red or black
any color except white, gray, or green

Feedback​

Your answer is incorrect.
any color except white, gray, or green
Explanation
The National Electrical Code requires that equipment grounding conductors be green, green with a yellow stripe, or bare copper. It also requires that solidly grounded conductors, like the neutral wire on the AC side of a PV system, be white or gray. There are no Code required colors for ungrounded or functionally grounded conductors, so they can be any color except white, gray, or green.


MY RESPONSE
NEC article 100 defines the difference between functionally and solidly grounded. But it also has definition for -grounded conductors- and there is no definition for a functionally grounded conductor so grounded conductor covers both functional and solidly.
Grounded conductor article is 200 it does not state in that section that functional ground is not associated with this section. And article 690 also has no distinction.

So a functional grounded conductor is a ( grounded conductor ) and is dictated by article 200 so 200.7 applies for identification.

It can’t be colored green because that dictated in article 250.
But gray or white is what it should be labeled.
One could argue if we don’t consider this a grounded conductor per article 100 and there is no definition for this conductor. Then it may be what ever color you want, if the NEC does not define in an article a mandatory rule then it is up to installer to decide what to do.
 
Last edited:

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Is there anyway you can find out who wrote the test?
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
I'm going to go against the grain here and agree with the tester's response. Functionally grounded is not the same as (solidly) grounded, and in some PV systems the negative conductor on the DC side is functionally grounded. There is no requirement for it to be color coded as grounded or grounding, so it cannot be green, white, gray, etc.
 

AC\DC

Senior Member
Location
Florence,Oregon,Lane
Occupation
EC
But there is no definition of functionally grounded conductor,
There just grounded conductor at it does not states if it only applies to solidly or/and functionally

Then if this conductor has no home in the code for definition then why can’t I make it whatever color I want. Since it’s not in the code
 

pv_n00b

Senior Member
Location
CA, USA
Occupation
Professional Electrical Engineer
The 2023 NEC does have a new definition for functionally grounded and it is:
Grounded, Functionally. (Functionally Grounded)
A system that has an electrical ground reference for operational purposes that is not solidly grounded. (CMP-4)

It is not solidly grounded so the color code for solidly grounded conductors cannot be used. In a functionally grounded system, there is no connection of any current-carrying conductor to ground. Just electronics that monitor a ground reference and alarm on a ground fault.
I agree with Ggunn. Against the grain!
 

AC\DC

Senior Member
Location
Florence,Oregon,Lane
Occupation
EC
Yes but not for the conductor and that is the question
Read article 100

The definition you have is for the type of grounded system.

Once again it does not define the conductor
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Yes but not for the conductor and that is the question
Read article 100

The definition you have is for the type of grounded system.

Once again it does not define the conductor
I agree, The question is bogus as written. The term only defines the system, it does not include component specifications.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
The 2023 NEC does have a new definition for functionally grounded and it is:


It is not solidly grounded so the color code for solidly grounded conductors cannot be used. In a functionally grounded system, there is no connection of any current-carrying conductor to ground. Just electronics that monitor a ground reference and alarm on a ground fault.
I agree with Ggunn. Against the grain!
Where does Article 200 say that it only applies to "solidly grounded" conductors?
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
But there is no definition of functionally grounded conductor,
There just grounded conductor at it does not states if it only applies to solidly or/and functionally

Then if this conductor has no home in the code for definition then why can’t I make it whatever color I want. Since it’s not in the code
IMO, the green, white, gray, etc. colors are reserved for conductors which have bonded connections to a grounding electrode. Functionally grounded conductors do not fit that description, so they cannot use those colors. That is my interpretation of the code; YMMV, but functionally grounded DC conductors have never been those colors in any of the PV systems I have designed.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
IMO, the green, white, gray, etc. colors are reserved for conductors which have bonded connections to a grounding electrode. Functionally grounded conductors do not fit that description, so they cannot use those colors. That is my interpretation of the code; YMMV, but functionally grounded DC conductors have never been those colors in any of the PV systems I have designed.
Consider an old transformer coupled PV system where the negative conductor is connected to the system ground through a fuse. In the event of a ground fault the fuse is blown and there can be significant voltage to ground on the DC negative. If the wire were coded as ground, a worker could mistakenly think that a white (or whatever) wire would be safe to touch, and they would be wrong. IIRC, when I was designing such systems my DC conductors were red and black.
 
Last edited:

pv_n00b

Senior Member
Location
CA, USA
Occupation
Professional Electrical Engineer
Where does Article 200 say that it only applies to "solidly grounded" conductors?
Functional grounding is only used in 690 so we are not going to find it called out in the general Art. 200. In 200 is refers to grounded conductors.
 
Last edited:

AC\DC

Senior Member
Location
Florence,Oregon,Lane
Occupation
EC
Functional grounding is only used in 690 so we are not going to find it called out in the general Art. 200. In 200 is refers to grounded conductors.
If 690 does not modify 200 then article 200 applies.
Look in article 90 tells what chapters apply though entire code and what chapter modify them
 

pv_n00b

Senior Member
Location
CA, USA
Occupation
Professional Electrical Engineer
Consider an old transformer coupled PV system where the negative conductor is connected to the system ground through a fuse. In the event of a ground fault the fuse is blown and there can be significant voltage to ground on the DC negative. If the wire were coded as ground, a worker could mistakenly think that a white (or whatever) wire would be safe to touch, and they would be wrong. IIRC, when I was designing such systems my DC conductors were red and black.
The PV industry was trying to make AHJs comfortable by saying the PV array was solidly grounded when it was grounded through a fuse that made it ungrounded if there was a fault. AHJs were very uncomfortable with the idea of normally ungrounded PV arrays on residential roofs back in the day. One of the biggest smoke and mirror jobs I have ever seen in the NEC. Now the GFDI fused ground would be considered "functionally grounded" and I still think functional grounding is smoke and mirrors to make AHJs feel warm and fuzzy by calling it grounding. If the conductor is not solidly connected to ground then it's not grounded, no matter what kind of "functional" protection you wrap it in.
 

pv_n00b

Senior Member
Location
CA, USA
Occupation
Professional Electrical Engineer
If 690 does not modify 200 then article 200 applies.
Look in article 90 tells what chapters apply though entire code and what chapter modify them
690 does modify 200 by adding the concept of "Functional Grounding" to NEC grounding in 200. So any description of functional grounding will be in 690, not 200.
 

AC\DC

Senior Member
Location
Florence,Oregon,Lane
Occupation
EC
No that not how it works. If 690 states that the ungrounded conductor of a functional grounddd system can’t be said white or grey then it modified it other ways it did nothing.

NO WERE in the code is a functional grounded system ungrounded conductor defined. So it is the definition of ungrounded conductor.
Not saying your wrong it should not be white or gray, but I got my question right since code says what I say
 
Top