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Siemens Plug on Neutral AFCI

Dennis Alwon

Dennis Alwon

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Location
Chapel Hill, NC
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Retired Electrical Contractor
I have never used them but I understand the load neutral gets connected to the panel neutral and the plug in breaker gets the neutral connection from a small neutral bar when the breaker is snapped in place.

Does anyone know how this can work being that the load neutral does not go thru the breaker. There is only one terminal on the breaker and that is for the load power conductor.
 
W

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
Dennis Alwon said:
I have never used them but I understand the load neutral gets connected to the panel neutral and the plug in breaker gets the neutral connection from a small neutral bar when the breaker is snapped in place.

Does anyone know how this can work being that the load neutral does not go thru the breaker. There is only one terminal on the breaker and that is for the load power conductor.
Click to expand...
The first paragraph implies that Siemens is an AFCI type that doesn't use any GF sensing in its algorithm. So it doesn't need to see the neutral conductor. Very convenient for MWBCs, just use two single pole AFCIs with a handle-tie.

Square D, last I checked, does still require the load neutral conductor to land on the breaker, so its AFCI breakers have a load neutral terminal, whether they are plug-on or pigtail type. MWBCs are only possible if they make a double pole AFCI breaker.

Cheers, Wayne
 
LarryFine

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
I believe plug-on-neutral breakers do have load-neutral terminals, like GFCIs without pigtails.

The panels will also accept wire neutrals and regular breakers; the neutral busses have terminals.
 
C

curt swartz

Electrical Contractor - San Jose, CA
Location
San Jose, CA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
LarryFine said:
I believe plug-on-neutral breakers do have load-neutral terminals, like GFCIs without pigtails.

The panels will also accept wire neutrals and regular breakers; the neutral busses have terminals.
Click to expand...
Siemens PoN AF breakers do not have load neutral terminals. Only the AF/GF breakers do.
 
Dennis Alwon

Dennis Alwon

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Location
Chapel Hill, NC
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Retired Electrical Contractor
Now the question is why doesn't the afci need a load neutral if it doesn't have a gfci in with the afci. The arc fault picks up on parallel arcs so how does it do that.
 
A

AC\DC

Senior Member
Location
Florence,Oregon,Lane
Occupation
EC
Seems like it’s monitors the sign wave on the phase conductor and the neutral just a reference point.
Any distortion would happen on the phase first.correct?
 
don_resqcapt19

don_resqcapt19

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Illinois
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retired electrician
GE was the first to remove the ground fault sensing from their AFCIs. All of the original branch circuit/feeder type AFCIs had GFP because that was the only way they could pass all of the tests required by UL 1699. After the combination type AFCIs were required and came on to the market, a number of manufacturers found ways to pass all of the required tests without needing a ground fault sensor. GE was first, than I think one of the Eaton lines and then Siemens. Not sure if SquareD has done this or not.
 
M

marmathsen

Senior Member
Location
Seattle, Washington ...ish
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
don_resqcapt19 said:
GE was the first to remove the ground fault sensing from their AFCIs. All of the original branch circuit/feeder type AFCIs had GFP because that was the only way they could pass all of the tests required by UL 1699. After the combination type AFCIs were required and came on to the market, a number of manufacturers found ways to pass all of the required tests without needing a ground fault sensor. GE was first, than I think one of the Eaton lines and then Siemens. Not sure if SquareD has done this or not.
Click to expand...

Well the Square D breakers still require a load neutral so it seems like they are still using the GFP. Maybe that's why the Square D breakers are so big compared to others

Rob G - Seattle
 
Little Bill

Little Bill

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Tennessee NEC:2017
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Semi-Retired Electrician
I installed some Siemens AFCI PON for the first time earlier this year. I had the neutral held together with the hot when I roughed in the panel. When I was doing the trim, I was looking for the neutral terminal on the breaker. I didn't know they had changed the breakers. After I figured it out, I like it.
I did find out that there was no GFP in them so that's why they don't need the neutral.
 
Dennis Alwon

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
Little Bill said:
I installed some Siemens AFCI PON for the first time earlier this year. I had the neutral held together with the hot when I roughed in the panel. When I was doing the trim, I was looking for the neutral terminal on the breaker. I didn't know they had changed the breakers. After I figured it out, I like it.
I did find out that there was no GFP in them so that's why they don't need the neutral.
Click to expand...
Siemens also make dp afci that will work on a multiwire branch circuit . As Don stated ge was the first to remove the gfp and to wire the make a dp afci- well not exactly. Instead of a dp afci they used 2- sp afci breakers and use it on a multiwire branch circuit . One of the sp doesn't need a neutral on the load.

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C

Crash117

Senior Member
Location
Nevada
Occupation
C-2 electrical contractor/owner operator
Dennis Alwon said:
The Siemens plug on neutral afci breaker has one terminal and that is for the load power
Click to expand...
I did a job over the last couple months where the new sub panel I installed had the neutral plug on. It was Siemens. It so used afci breakers that plugged on and had no load neutral going to the breaker. All load neutral afci went to the normal neutral bar.
 
F

farmantenna

Senior Member
Location
mass
LarryFine said:
I believe plug-on-neutral breakers do have load-neutral terminals, like GFCIs without pigtails.

The panels will also accept wire neutrals and regular breakers; the neutral busses have terminals.
Click to expand...
Siemens plug-on neutral breakers have one terminal. Everything is wired like a regular $4 breaker costing $45-50
 
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