Moonlighting

[emahler]

Recently there was a discussion regarding employees moonlighting, and it got me thinking.

Who really benefits from moonlighting electricians?

Is it the boss who is paying the employees freight?
Is it the customer who gets a great deal, but has no protection should something go wrong?
Is it the employee who works 80 hrs a week and helps to keep prices artificially low so that his boss can't give him a raise?

What do you think? Honestly. And I would love to hear why you feel that way.

 

[iwire]

I can not answer the pole.

IMO it is skewed to achieve a certain result.

The Customer - they get a great deal The majority of times yes.

The Employee - he makes extra cash Yes, in the short term which is how many of us live.

The Employer - he doesn''t have to pay as much, the difference is made up by moonlighting In the short term I guess so, never really thought about it.

Nobody - moonlighting really screws up the industry In the long term, yes without a doubt in my mind. It brings all our wages down,

 

[jeff43222]

I moonlight, but not in the way you might think.

I work as an electrical engineer full-time during the day, and I play electrician evenings and weekends. Unlike many moonlighters, though:

• My employer is not paying any of the freight when I play electrician. I provide my own vehicle, tools, materials, etc. I have also informed my employer in writing what I do on the side.
• My customers aren't getting a better deal than they otherwise would, other the convenience of my being available outside of normal work hours. My rates are in the same ballpark as other ECs, and I'm fully licensed, insured, and bonded.
• I'm not screwing up the industry. I spread hope and good cheer, and I maintain above-average personal hygiene.

My take on moonlighting is that there's nothing wrong with it as long as your employer knows about it and isn't paying your moonlighting freight (unless they want to), and you're properly licensed according to the laws where you operate.

What I think screws up the industry is:

• Properly licensed ECs who rip people off. Perhaps people wouldn't feel the need to hire an unlicensed handyman or an illegal moonlighter if they weren't so afraid of being taken advantage of.
• Unlicensed handymen doing the work illegally. These guys need to be shut down.
• Electricians who are moonlighting without being properly licensed/insured ECs and who are using their employers' tools/materials without permission.

 

[growler]

My opinion is that no one wins.

The customer ends up taking chances that he is probably unfamiliar with. If you are going to moonlight then write up a letter explaining all the possible risk involved and present it to the customer. Example: workman falls off ladder and breaks his fool neck ( uninsured and not a contractor ). He can sue the homeowner and a licensed contractor can't.

The contractor: It doesn't matter what a contractor pays for labor the only thing that matters is profit. If he can charge more he can pay more, it's just one operating cost.

The electrician: If anyone would rather work 80 hours for the same money that he can make in 40 then he's an idiot and should go into politics, they need people like that in Washington.


Jeff, you are not moonlighting, you are running a part time business. Many electrical contractors have other business ventures. It's not only possible but legal to be in more than one business. The key word is "legal".

 

[growler]

Properly licensed ECs who rip people off. Perhaps people wouldn't feel the need to hire an unlicensed handyman or an illegal moonlighter if they weren't so afraid of being taken advantage of

Are you talking about the contractors that actually make enough money to stay in business. The one's that can actually afford to hire employees and pay them well and provide insurance and other benefits.

I don't know of any legitimate contractors that rip people off. They may charge more than the customer wishes to pay but that's not a rip off. In my area there are at least 100 contractors so not one has a monopoly. The customer is free to shop around. Everyone offers flat rate pricing so where is the rip off.

Most of the people that get ripped off are looking for a good deal under the table. I have never been to a home where a legitimate contractor ran off with thousands of dollars of a customer's money. I have been there where they thought they were getting a good deal and ended up getting nothing.

There are many ways to report a contractor that rips you off. Any contractor that doesn't deliver the services promised for an agreed upon price can be reported.

Being taken advantage off often just means paying the going rate. I feel violated every time I go to the dentist but he doesn't rip me off ( I have checked the rates of the competition ). My last dentist was much higher but he wasn't ripping me off he was just charging more.

 

[jeff43222]

From Merriam-Webster (www.m-w.com):

Main Entry: moonlight
Function: intransitive verb
Inflected Form(s): moon?light?ed; moon?light?ing
Etymology: back-formation from moonlighter
: to hold a second job in addition to a regular one

Apparently the term doesn't have any connontation that the second job involves illegal work. My understanding was also a bit off, since I don't really have a second "job." Rather, I have a part-time business.

 

[jeff43222]

When I was referring to contractors ripping people off, I was talking about resorting to unethical behavior. I was not talking about charging enough to stay in business or even charging high prices.

For example, someone calls an EC and wants to have some electrical work done, but they don't know much about what's involved or what code requirements are. An unethical EC could upsell the job and tell them they really should also do x, y, and z for "safety" or "code" reasons. We have special knowledge and experience that the average person doesn't, which is why we deserve to be paid decent money, but it's not a license to take advantage of people who don't know the difference between work that is really needed and work that is only being done because the EC wants to make more money. We've all heard stories about the mechanic who tells you your muffler belts need to be rotated.

I've had people call me up and ask me to do work that was clearly unnecessary, but after I talked to them about what they actually needed, I was able to propose an alternate solution that saved them a bundle of money. Sure, I could have kept my mouth shut, done the unnecessary work, and made more profit, but I think as pros we have an obligation to treat our customers as we'd like to be treated and not take advantage of their ignorance.

Recently I ran into a plumber who was playing these kind of games with a homeowner. In addition to going on and on about how the plumbing was going to need to be all ripped out and replaced, he was jumping up and down about how dangerous the wiring on a water heater was and how the homeowner needed to get an electrician to make things right. His original protest was somewhat warranted (the wiring was messed up), but after everything was fixed by an expert EC I handed the job off to, he still kept claiming the homeowner needed to bring in an electrician because he didn't know how to kill power to the water heater so he could work on it. That claim was clearly bogus, so the homeowner fired the plumber. I'm guessing that this guy (state and city licensed master plumber) was just looking to pad the hours and was spreading it around to other trades, hoping we'd return the favor someday.

Sometimes it gets criminal, though. The news recently had a story about a GC who took advantage of an elderly couple and charged them several hundred thousand dollars for "repairs" and "remodeling" to their tiny $100,000 house. The house is now in a state of half-finished work, and much of the work the GC did was bad, anyway. More work will be needed to fix what has been done already, and the elderly couple is tapped out. The authorities are prosecuting on felony fraud charges, and the GC will likely wind up in jail. The woman, when asked why she spent so much money, responded that she had no idea how much remodeling work costs.

 

[growler]

Apparently the term doesn't have any connontation that the second job involves illegal work. My understanding was also a bit off, since I don't really have a second "job." Rather, I have a part-time business.

The technical meaning of the word "yes". From the the lexicon of the electrical industry "moonlighting means side work". I can't find jacK-leg or trunk-slammer in the dictionary but I think we all know the meaning. I don't think the original post on moonlighting was talking about someone tending bar at night either.

 

[DHkorn]

Benefit - You're Kidding

Benefit - You're Kidding

As a smaller contractor I can't tell you how many times I've been called to fix someone elses sidejob. I think the issue is that while most journeyman are competant installers, they don't know or wont admit when they get in too deep making design decisions that they aren't used to making. I'm not faulting them for their errors. I made them too when I first started. I fault them for when they finally see their mistake, and instead of taking the hit and doing it right they cheat and run. I've been there, I've walked in to customers with my hat in my hand, to them I screwed up and put my cards on the table. Some people respect that and help you cover your costs, most don't. Thats life. Man if I had a nickel...

 

[emahler]

bob, forget the poll, i don't care what the result is. but you answered my questions, that's what i was looking for.

 

[jeff43222]

Another hit from our friends at Merriam-Webster (www.m-w.com):

Main Entry: jack?leg
Pronunciation: 'jak-"leg, -"lAg
Function: adjective
Etymology: 1jack + -leg (as in blackleg)
1 a : characterized by unscrupulousness, dishonesty, or lack of professional standards <a jackleg lawyer> b : lacking skill or training : AMATEUR <a jackleg carpenter>
2 : designed as a temporary expedient : MAKESHIFT
- jackleg noun

Couldn't find "trunk slammer" in any actual dictionary, though. But I think we all know what one is.

I agree that in our industry "moonlighting" generally refers to people who work for ECs but do electrical work on the side. Sometimes these guys have electrician licenses (e.g., journeyman), but in this state that's not enough. Most customers I deal with have no idea how electrical licensing works.

 

[growler]

Recently I ran into a plumber who was playing these kind of games with a homeowner. In addition to going on and on about how the plumbing was going to need to be all ripped out and replaced, he was jumping up and down about how dangerous the wiring on a water heater was and how the homeowner needed to get an electrician to make things right. His original protest was somewhat warranted (the wiring was messed up), but after everything was fixed by an expert EC I handed the job off to, he still kept claiming the homeowner needed to bring in an electrician because he didn't know how to kill power to the water heater so he could work on it. That claim was clearly bogus, so the homeowner fired the plumber. I'm guessing that this guy (state and city licensed master plumber) was just looking to pad the hours and was spreading it around to other trades, hoping we'd return the favor someday.

If this plumber was breaking the law in any way then you should report him. If the electrician didn't put a disconnect that was needed at the water heater then you should report him. Is the plumber legally allowed to do any electrical work in your state? Was he following a standard safety proceedure?
I put a disconnect on all water heaters so the plumbers never need to call an electrician.

I have had an appliance repairman that would not change out a switch to a garbage disposal. The company that he works for would not allow him to do this.

I don't repair a lot of HVAC equipment that I could because I'm not licensed to do so. I tell the customer to call a licensed company.

By up-sale of a job do you mean doing more than the bare minimum. Each contractor decides what he should do in order to warranty the work. I still change lugs out in meter bases when most contractors will not. The power companies know me and they don't trust everyone. I save some people a little money ( mainly old or poor ) but that doesn't mean that the contractors that don't do this are ripping anyone off. I have low overhead so I can do things that other contractors can't. I have tried it both ways so I know what it cost to run a business.

Electrical contracting is a business just like selling cars or insurance. Just because the saleman sells you something that you don't really need doesn't make him a con man. To rip someone off means that you sell goods or services that you don't furnish.

This is not an altrustic world. When a doctor tells me he needs to remove my liver I'm getting a second opinion. This is the advice I give customers and I doubt they will run into three crooks in a row ( law of averages ).

 

[George Stolz]

My former employer would hold company-wide meetings, to go over safety, operational, and business issues. When it came to the business side of the discussion, the boss would often make a point to say that they were having to bid work tighter and tighter, due to having to compete with small ECs.

It always tickled me, the disgust with which he always referenced "guys working out of their garage and a pickup truck." If you were of a mind to swallow everything said by a superior, you would have been inclined to believe that the only reputable company is a large one with a big overhead, such as theirs, when the meeting was concluded.

In the beginning, I bought it, to be honest. Then I thought down the road, and at that point I figured I wanted to run my own business at some point. I pictured what that would look like - I would be working out of my garage in a pick-up truck. I realized I would become one of the enemy.

It dawned on me the guy was just angry because he had competition with a financial edge over him in his target market. I'm no economist, but I can recognize the benefits of large and small businesses, and their respective strengths and weaknesses. If a big business fishes in a small pond, they will lose out to the little business that belongs there. If a small business fishes in the big lake, then they won't be able to tread water in the volume and either need to grow into a big business to survive or head back to the pond.

Unfortunately for that guy, his big lake is starting to dry up, and his big boat isn't handling too well in his rapidly shrinking pond. I generally perceive that a "drought" is generally what increases this animosity towards these small timers, licensed or not.

Fortunately, I've found happiness just baiting hooks and letting somebody else do the casting in a different big lake, so I have no such concerns.

 

[jeff43222]

That's where it gets tricky. As far as I could tell, the plumber didn't break any laws. He wasn't doing any electrical work, nor did he rip off the homeowner in the sense that he charged for goods or services that weren't furnished. But he was either hopelessly incompetent or wasn't very honest when he said he didn't know how to kill power to the water heater to safely work on it. The plumber has 30 years in the trade and a master license, so I'm guessing it was the latter. The new electrical work was done by a very experienced pro who I'm certain did the work safely and correctly. I wouldn't have given his name to the homeowner if I didn't think he'd do a first-rate job.

I also stick to the scope of my license when I work in people's houses. I've had people ask me about furnace problems, but I limit my troubleshooting to the power area. If I determine the problem isn't power-related, I tell them to call an HVAC shop.

The upselling I was referring to was the unethical kind, where you use your status as a pro to talk people into things they don't need. A car salesman is just a salesman, and people expect them to try to sell more stuff. But I am often asked for my opinion on whether something is unsafe or whether something is needed to be done with someone's electrical system. If I were unethical, my answer would always be that anything that makes me more money is something the homeowner needs. I consider it ripping people off if I convince them to do something I tell them is necessary, but in reality I'm only interested in adding to my bottom line.

I'm not running my business as a charity; I want to make money at it. But I also have to be able to sleep at night, and that won't happen if I con people into having unnecessary electrical work done. I'd like to be known as the guy who will be honest with people and is willing to make recommendations based on my true opinion rather than based on what will make me the most money. People sure remember me when I give them advice that will clearly result in me making less money. Since most of my work is referral work, I figure I must be doing something right.

 

[haskindm]

Moonlighting covers a multitude of situations. Many times it means an unlicensed, uninsured, employee doing work for which he may or may not be qualified. As a member of our county electrc board I see the disastrous results from these practices all of the time. Many times the homeowner knows that the person that they hire works as an "electrician", they do not (or claim they do not) know that he does not hold a Master License so he may not contract work in our county. He cannot request an inspection. Many times we have found employees forging their employers name on inspections and turning them in. It is unair for the licensed and insured electricians to have to try to compete with these workers. They do not pay for insurance, they do not pay taxes on the income they generate, they do not pay unemployment insurance, and they do not pay workman's comp. To top it off they often do the "side job" using thier employer's truck and tools!
It is a bad situation when your employees become your biggest competetition. It then becomes a vicious cycle, the employer cannot pay the workers as much as he should because he needs to compete with people doing side jobs, which encourages workers to do more side jobs in order to make a decent wage and so the cycle continues!

 

[jeff43222]

I sure hope you and your colleagues at the county electric board have the ability to go after these clowns. The state does the enforcement here, and their resources are limited. I know they go after licensed journeymen who are playing EC without the proper license, but if you have no license of any sort, I don't think they do much, if anything, about it.

 

[growler]

That's where it gets tricky. As far as I could tell, the plumber didn't break any laws. He wasn't doing any electrical work, nor did he rip off the homeowner in the sense that he charged for goods or services that weren't furnished. But he was either hopelessly incompetent or wasn't very honest when he said he didn't know how to kill power to the water heater to safely work on it. The plumber has 30 years in the trade and a master license, so I'm guessing it was the latter. The new electrical work was done by a very experienced pro who I'm certain did the work safely and correctly. I wouldn't have given his name to the homeowner if I didn't think he'd do a first-rate job

Jeff you are convicting the plumber based on hear say and supposition. The plumber may be capable of doing the work but refuseing on principle. If there was no lockable breaker or disconnect he could require the circuit be disconnected. You stated that the plumber was correct about the faulty wiring. I would check into the situation further before making any accusations ( locally ). I know of a plumber that likes to sue people that call him a crook. He is, but no one has been able to prove it and he has been able to prove slander against others.

When I suggest that people get major electrical work done I always suggest that the get three different opinions from contractors that I don't know. If they say that things are OK and are willing to stand behind thier word it's allright by me ( it hasn't happened yet ).

But I don't give opinions on plumbing because I'm not a plumber. When running a small business a lot of care must be taken not to become a jack-leg. Plumbers don't like us getting involved in their business anymore than we like them getting involved in ours.

I believe in the old adage of " shoemaker stick to thy last".

 

[bradleyelectric]

It always tickled me, the disgust with which he always referenced "guys working out of their garage and a pickup truck." If you were of a mind to swallow everything said by a superior, you would have been inclined to believe that the only reputable company is a large one with a big overhead, such as theirs, when the meeting was concluded.

funny, around here the big guys doing residential are the ones keeping the residential new construction pricing down. They don't pay the men well, turn over manpower, and figure they make money on volume.

 

[jeff43222]

Jeff you are convicting the plumber based on hear say and supposition. The plumber may be capable of doing the work but refuseing on principle. If there was no lockable breaker or disconnect he could require the circuit be disconnected. You stated that the plumber was correct about the faulty wiring. I would check into the situation further before making any accusations ( locally ). I know of a plumber that likes to sue people that call him a crook. He is, but no one has been able to prove it and he has been able to prove slander against others.

The original call about the messed up wiring was that he had no idea how to disconnect power to the water heater. That was legit, as the panel wasn't labeled, and the only way to figure it out was to open the panel and physically trace the wiring, or use a circuit tracer, which a plumber wouldn't be expected to have, nor would he be expected to use it since he'd have to connect it to live wires at the water heater. I only discovered the wiring was messed up after I opened up the panel to trace the wiring.

Actually, when I got word that the homeowner fired the plumber, I wasn't surprised in the least. The EC I handed the job over to is someone who really knows what he's doing (I'm a total novice compared to him), and I trust his judgment. Also, I've dealt with this plumber before, so I know his MO. The plumber is a classic example of someone who protests too much. Example:

Plumber: Your plumbing is a real mess ... some hack sure messed it all up ...
Homeowner: OK, so what needs to be done?
Plumber: Hey, I've got 25 years of experience and 13 licenses! I'm licensed by the same agency that licenses doctors!
Homeowner (confused): I was just asking...
​

Like I said, I don't think the plumber actually broke any laws, but based on my experiences with him, I don't trust him. First of all, doctors and plumbers are not licensed by the same agency. Even if they were, why he thinks that "fact" would be relevant is a mystery to me. Second, I discovered that he thinks various certification cards issued to him by the union are "licenses," which they aren't. Third, he tried to claim skill in the electrical trade but clearly was talking nonsense (he suggested "7 gauge" wire for the water heater).

I'm not accusing him of breaking any laws. I'm only looking at the facts and saying I don't trust him.

 

[kingpb]

funny, around here the big guys doing residential are the ones keeping the residential new construction pricing down. They don't pay the men well, turn over manpower, and figure they make money on volume.

You are correct, becasue the larger outifts also have the buying power and clout to get equipment cheaper. Just because you buy at the same wholesale house doesn't mean you pay the same price. The big guys also buy enough to get equipment/materials delivered, or they have a goffer to pick it up. This also translates to a savings. Look at how much time can be wasted, visiting the wholsale house. Time is money.

I personally don't see anything wrong with guys doing work on the side, as long as the contacts to get the work are their own, they are not using equippment or materials from the employer to do the work, and they are operating as a legit EC. Most likly the large outfit will not be competing with the small shop anyway, and vice versa.