Big oops ... need suggestions

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jeff43222

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Minneapolis, Minnesota
I went to a friend of a friend's place today to install a ceiling fan in the baby's bedroom. The only switch in the room controlled half of a duplex receptacle, so I had to put in a new ceiling outlet for the fan. My idea was to make the switched receptacle unswitched, yank out the existing switch, put in a single-gang dual dimmer to control the light and fan, and run some 14/3 NM from the dual dimmers to the new outlet. I did all this, and everything worked according to plan. Homeowner and wife were pleased.

So all that was left was to swap out the existing breaker and put in an AFCI. Guess what I found inside the panel. Yep -- the circuit in question was half of a multiwire circuit. The only AFCIs I've installed previously were on circuits I installed myself, and I only use multiwire circuits in very limited instances (e.g., dishwasher/disposal receptacle). It never occurred to me that the AFCI wouldn't work on a multiwire circuit, but it sure didn't. It was also the first statement in the instructions that came with it.

So the problem is that the ceiling fan works fine as long as I leave the old breaker in place, which is not code-compliant. Just about every cable leaving the panel is a multiwire circuit, and the few that aren't are nowhere near where I could tap into them and/or are illegal for me to tap into.

The house is a three-level 3000 sq. ft townhouse built in 1989, totally finished everywhere except the small furnace/panelboard room on the lower level, and the bedroom I worked on is on the upper level, nowhere near the panel.

Anyone have any brilliant ideas as to how I can keep the new ceiling fan working and be code-compliant at the same time? Running a new circuit for this new outlet would be a seriously major PITA.
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

1) Use a 2 pole AFCI.

2) Investigate the MW circuit and its loading and see if you can combine it.

[ October 13, 2005, 10:54 PM: Message edited by: peter d ]
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

If all you did was add a fan why would you change out the breaker in the first place? :confused:
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Realboss,

The paddlefan support box is a new outlet. There was no ceiling outlet prior to Jeff's installing it.

Since it is a new outlet added in a bedroom, the outlet must meet 210.12.
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

I thought about using a two-pole AFCI, but I've never seen such a thing, and as far as I can tell, Square-D doesn't make them. I can't find anything but single-pole AFCI breakers on their Website.

I don't think combining loads will work very well. The circuit in question powers everything in the baby's bedroom, plus everything in one bathroom, and some lights and the receptacles in another bathroom. Apparently there are already overload issues with the circuit, so I don't think adding to the load would be a good idea, plus I don't think it would be code-compliant to add a bedroom outlet to a circuit that already contains bathroom receptacles.

As for why I swapped out the breaker, I had to. Code says any new outlets in a bedroom must be AFCI-protected, and the ceiling fan is clearly a new outlet. I had to cut a hole in the ceiling and put in a fan box where there was no box before.
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Check out my thread on AFCI woes. It's in the NEC. I don't know how to post links. I made the same mistake. I had to pull a second nuetral to make the AFCI work. I blew it. It will not happen again. Suck it up and run new wire. 2 pole AFCI's are expensive. What is cheaper, a 2 pole AFCI breaker or pulling new wire?

[ October 13, 2005, 11:31 PM: Message edited by: sparky_magoo ]
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

How expensive are we talking about? More importantly, is there such a thing as a two-pole AFCI QO breaker?

I would be such a huge hassle to run a new cable for this circuit that I'd be willing to pay real money for a two-pole breaker.

[ October 13, 2005, 11:35 PM: Message edited by: jeff43222 ]
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Jeff,

To my knowledge, SqD doesn't have a 2-pole yet. One possible solution is to set a small CH subpanel and use their 2-pole AFCI.
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by paul:
Code says any new outlets in a bedroom must be AFCI-protected
Click to expand...
Where?
Click to expand...
210.12(B) Dwelling Unit Bedrooms. All branch circuits that supply 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere outlets installed in dwelling unit bedrooms shall be protected by an arc-fault circuit interrupter listed to provide protection of the entire branch circuit.
Click to expand...
Any new electrical installation must meet the current code.

As Al pointed out the fan outlet is new, the fact Jeff picked up an 'old' circuit does not get him out of the need for AFCI on the new work.
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

(Quote) The house is a three-level 3000 sq. ft townhouse built in 1989, totally finished everywhere except the small furnace/panelboard room on the lower level, and the bedroom I worked on is on the upper level, nowhere near the panel.
No afci required when wired ,but additions/changes bring the home in question to what ever cycle your area is following 96,99,02,05.......

I don't think combining loads will work very well. The circuit in question powers everything in the baby's bedroom, plus everything in one bathroom, and some lights and the receptacles in another bathroom. Apparently there are already overload issues with the circuit, so I don't think adding to the load would be a good idea, plus I don't think it would be code-compliant to add a bedroom outlet to a circuit that already contains bathroom receptacles.

In 89 it was ok to hit bath room circuits and other rooms together.I don`t think a single ceiling fan would make that much of a difference. :(
#2 use standard breakers and be done with it. ;)
#3 break out the drills extenda bits and drywall
saw :eek:
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Allan go back and read what he would be combining.

He is not worried that the additional fan will cause an overload.
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Mistake # 1 ( went to a friend of a friend's place today to install a ceiling fan in the baby's bedroom.)
Mistake # 2 (So all that was left was to swap out the existing breaker and put in an AFCI. Guess what I found inside the panel. Yep -- the circuit in question was half of a multiwire circuit)
Request #1 Anyone have any brilliant ideas as to how I can keep the new ceiling fan working and be code-compliant at the same time? Running a new circuit for this new outlet would be a seriously major PITA.

peter d
Member # 1217 posted October 13, 2005 10:53 PM
------------------------------------------------
Answer #1-(2 Investigate the MW circuit and its loading and see if you can combine it.I
don't think combining loads will work very well. The circuit in question powers everything in the baby's bedroom, plus everything in one bathroom, and some lights and the receptacles in another bathroom.
Thought #1 (Apparently there are already overload issues with the circuit, so I don't think adding to the load would be a good idea, plus I don't think it would be code-compliant to add a bedroom outlet to a circuit that already contains bathroom receptacles.)


sparky_magoo
Member # 22122 posted October 13, 2005
Check out my thread on AFCI woes. It's in the NEC. I don't know how to post links. I made the same mistake. I had to pull a second nuetral to make the AFCI work. I blew it.
Was this in pipe or nm :eek: :eek:
_________________________________________________#1 - Circuit overload is being considered
Thoughts
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Hit wrong key ok where was I Ok i rember :D
it has already been determined the home is wired correctley for the time period and they are under 02 cycle now.There is no easy answer
#1 - tear the house up
#2 - combine the MWBC and be done with it.
#3 - change over to standard breaker :eek:
The house was wired under old code ,let
dead dogs lye there. :eek:
#4 Sitting slut
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

We're actually under the 2005 NEC now. The AFCI rules are the same as under the 2002 as far as I can tell.

As for the options:

1) Tearing up the house isn't going to happen. All they wanted was a ceiling fan, but they didn't want it so bad that they are willing to have major surgery performed on the house to make it happen.

2) Combining the two legs of the MWBC into one circuit is also not going to happen. Although that idea might work to prevent the AFCI from nuisance tripping, there would still be a lot of nuisance tripping, only from overloads instead of the AFCI being on a multiwire circuit. The circuit in question is 15A, and it was already having intermittent overload problems before I ever showed up (two bathrooms are on the circuit). Adding a whole extra circuit, plus the new ceiling fan, wouldn't be a good idea even if it is legal.

3) Skipping the AFCI requirement and just leaving in the old standard breaker is also not an option. The inspector is certainly not going to let that fly. I have yet to meet an inspector who doesn't look for them when they are required.

I think the best course of action is for me to install a small subpanel next to the main panel, move the MWBC to it, and protect it with a two-pole AFCI. I think that would make everything work properly and still be code-compliant.

[ October 14, 2005, 08:22 AM: Message edited by: jeff43222 ]
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by jeff43222:
3) Skipping the AFCI requirement and just leaving in the old standard breaker is also not an option. The inspector is certainly not going to let that fly. I have yet to meet an inspector who doesn't look for them when they are required.
Click to expand...
:mad:

All things considered, this is preposterous.
icon13.gif
 
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