Wood Stove & Piping

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NECLLC1

New User
I have recently been thinking about wood stoves installed in homes. The stove is some sort of metal and the piping also. As the piping protrudes through the roof, it becomes the highest point (in most cases) of the home. The entire stove is basically sitting on some sort of platform that is not connected to the earth acting as an air terminal (lightning rod). If lightning were to strike the top of the pipe and work its way down, wouldn't it cause a potential side arc to anyone standing near it inside the house? Is there anything in any code requiring the grounding of a wood stove assembly? Thanks in advance.
 

dfmischler

Senior Member
Location
Western NY
Occupation
Facilities Manager
The Nec does not require grounding of wood stoves

What if there is a blower, either for circulating heated air, or for managing combustion (e.g. draft inducer)? I suspect these will become increasingly common with the drive for efficiency and the cleanest burning possible.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
It is lightning, it came from mother nature and traveled miles through the air.

If it strikes the chimney no amount of bonding or grounding is going to prevent the potential for damage or injury.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
What if there is a blower, either for circulating heated air, or for managing combustion (e.g. draft inducer)? I suspect these will become increasingly common with the drive for efficiency and the cleanest burning possible.

Then it becomes a lot like an antenna mounted on the roof. If it is earth bonded, even if indirectly through an EGC to a blower, it has a pretty small bonding conductor for the high energy that will be in the lightning strike.
 

tom baker

First Chief Moderator
Staff member
What if there is a blower, either for circulating heated air, or for managing combustion (e.g. draft inducer)? I suspect these will become increasingly common with the drive for efficiency and the cleanest burning possible.

Then the stove would be bonded thru the EGC in the power cord and supply circuit
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
I have recently been thinking about wood stoves installed in homes. The stove is some sort of metal and the piping also. As the piping protrudes through the roof, it becomes the highest point (in most cases) of the home. The entire stove is basically sitting on some sort of platform that is not connected to the earth acting as an air terminal (lightning rod). If lightning were to strike the top of the pipe and work its way down, wouldn't it cause a potential side arc to anyone standing near it inside the house? Is there anything in any code requiring the grounding of a wood stove assembly? Thanks in advance.

there is no requirement I am aware of in any code to ground a wood stove.

in any case, what good would it do?
 

JFletcher

Senior Member
Location
Williamsburg, VA
there is no requirement I am aware of in any code to ground a wood stove.

in any case, what good would it do?

Well, if we really want to reach... say wiring in attic is too close to vent, overheats, ungrounded conductor touches wood stove pipe... energizes it. If the stove were grounded it *might* trip the breaker, otherwise it would sit energized 120V above ground. Never heard of a lightning strike on a stove vent nor wiring failing in a way I mentioned.

If you (whoever you are) wanted to run a bare #6 to a woodstove, there is nothing in the NEC preventing it. I'd be much more concerned with heat burns, fire, and CO than a one in a trillion chance of being electrocuted thru a woodstove. A good pair of gloves, a CO/smoke detector, and a Class A fire extinguisher would be a much better investment of money than grounding the stove.
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
If you want to attract more lightning, bond it to Earth.

I respectfully disagree with you.

As a ham radio operator, lightning is of great interest to me. I have studied it for years, and have some NWS training on severe weather behavior.

Bonding for lightning protection is an intentional low impedance path in the event of a direct strike. The likelihood of a strike depends on the location of the charge centers, the prominence of the object and it's shape, it has nothing to do with bonding. Bonding will mitigate arcing between conductive objects as it shunts most of the current to ground with non-fusible conductors.

One does not attract or repel lightning. Once can reduce the likelihood of a strike by adding diffusers at the top of the structure. The diffusers are of a shape that makes the formation of 'feelers', needed for ionization, difficult.
 

mgookin

Senior Member
Location
Fort Myers, FL
Are you saying that if the airplane were a stationary object with a braided copper leader to Earth that they airplane would be no more prone to taking a strike?
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
Are you saying that if the airplane were a stationary object with a braided copper leader to Earth that they airplane would be no more prone to taking a strike?

Yep.

In fact, such a leader may actually protect the plane. If the air around the leader ionizes and forms feelers, it will get hit, not the plane.

Trees don't get struck by lightning at the top. It's usually in the upper 1/3, but not the top. I have pictures.

I have to take off for a while, but I do like the topic of lightning. When I get back, if you want, I can give you some links to some good info about the subject. One site is put up by a ham radio op that used to work for Motorola and he has pictures of his tower's lightning protection system (that takes direct hits without damage) and the theory and facts about the system. It's a good site and Tom the owner dispels many myths about lightning on it.
 

mgookin

Senior Member
Location
Fort Myers, FL
Yep.

In fact, such a leader may actually protect the plane. If the air around the leader ionizes and forms feelers, it will get hit, not the plane.

Trees don't get struck by lightning at the top. It's usually in the upper 1/3, but not the top. I have pictures.

I have to take off for a while, but I do like the topic of lightning. When I get back, if you want, I can give you some links to some good info about the subject. One site is put up by a ham radio op that used to work for Motorola and he has pictures of his tower's lightning protection system (that takes direct hits without damage) and the theory and facts about the system. It's a good site and Tom the owner dispels many myths about lightning on it.


Love to read it.

Let me rephrase my question:
Are you saying that if the airplane were a stationary object with an insulated braided copper leader to Earth that they airplane would be no more prone to taking a strike?
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
Love to read it.

Let me rephrase my question:
Are you saying that if the airplane were a stationary object with an insulated braided copper leader to Earth that they airplane would be no more prone to taking a strike?
I will have to get back to the links later, the tech info is now buried in product info. The articles I am looking for break down the lightning strike into stages, with each one explained.

Nonetheless, what you are proposing would provide a low impedance path compared to the surrounding air to plain old DC. Lighting is classified as DC because the polarity doesn't alternate, but it does pulsate to the point that it behaves like 100 MHz AC. That several thousand foot long braid is nearly invisible to 100 MHz AC. In addition, the extreme high voltages of lighting cause the air between charge centers to ionize and it becomes very conductive to high voltage high, frequency electricity, drastically lowering the impedance between charge centers, while the metal leader to Earth will remain at a higher impedance.

Insulation would have to be enormous to be of any effect to a bolt of lightning. Pretty much, it doesn't do squat. Have you ever seen insulation on lightning rod conductors?

The shape of the objects concerned make more difference than any type of DC grounding when it comes to reducing the likelihood of strikes. The smoother the better, and if the plane is smoother than the braid, the braid will be more likely to become the point at which the stepped leaders form. The stepped leaders are the start of the ionization process.

Now, if the plane was atop a huge round pole, all other things being the same, the plane would be more prominent (likely to be a step leader starting point) than the pole. The does NOT mean that the pole makes the plane attract lightning.

The only thing that attracts lighting is the charge centers that flow through the earth. The 'exit' points can be manipulated by changing the shape of the objects, but the bolt will go from one charge center to another via the route that has been established by the stepped leaders. That's not always the tallest structure, but taller structures are usually more prominent that lower ones. Trees get hit just above the center because the shape of the branches are more prominent to creating stepped leaders than toward the center than the very tops.

This company makes some cool protection devices. Sorry about the commercialism. http://www.lightningprotection.com/products/
In a separate post I will share a post from a guy that installs products like the above.
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
From Glen K9STH, a former engineer for a large utility company in Texas:

I wrote a fairly lengthy dissertation yesterday about dissipation devices that, somehow, was "dissipated" from this thread!

There are those persons who consider dissipation devices "snake oil" and there are those, like me, that have found them to be very effective in reducing the chances of taking a strike. You notice that I say "REDUCING" the chances of taking a strike because there is nothing that can absolutely prevent a lightning strike, at least now known to man!

I spent over 10-years as an "in house" telecommunications consultant to TXU (basically the electric company for almost half the State of Texas) specializing in grounding and lightning protection, and then another, over 10-years, as an independent consultant dealing with the same things.

Lightning starts from the "ground up" and NOT from the sky downward. What are often called "feelers" start from things on the ground and then, when those "feelers" get long enough, those "feelers" are met by the main charge coming from the sky. When the chances of "feelers" being formed are reduced, then the chances of taking a direct lightning strike are reduced.

The purpose of a dissipation device is to "bleed off" the charge from the Earth bound item. With these devices, a corona can be formed which indicates that the charge is being bled off. When there is a corona, there is no feeler! Yes, it is possible for a "feeler" to happen when there are dissipation devices installed. This is because there is a greater charge being developed than the dissipation devices can adequately dissipate.

Dissipation devices are not normally installed on the actual antennas. They are installed on the supporting structure, usually a tower. On a tower, dissipation devices need to be installed on each leg of the tower, just like each leg of a tower needs to be independently grounded at the base. When the height of the tower exceeds around 100-feet, then additional dissipation devices need to be installed below the top of the tower. These additional devices need to be installed every 50-feet to 75-feet along the legs of the tower.

My first "professional" use of dissipation devices was at the Athens, Texas, TXU microwave tower. This tower was infamous for taking lightning strikes with varying levels of damage to equipment. This tower, like all of the TXU owned two-way radio towers and microwave towers had, within a year, or so, had the grounding system upgraded, by an independent firm, to conform with the "latest and greatest" grounding techniques available. However, damage from lightning strikes were still happening. In about a month, there were 3-lightning strikes on the tower causing over $100,000 total damage. Since TXU "self insured" for any single occurence resulting in less than $1,000,000 damage, the cost of replacing the equipment had to come out of the local manager's budget. As a result, the local manager contacted me to see what could be done. I had been trying to get management to consider using dissipation devices after attending a seminar about using the devices. I got the local manager to purchase dissipation devices and they were installed by TXU radio / microwave technicians.

A couple of weeks after the dissipation devices were installed, I got a telephone call from the manager. He told me that they had another lightning strike. When I asked him how much damage, he told me that 2-each telephone "protector blocks", costing about $1.00, had been damaged. Of course, that lightning strike had been on the telephone lines and not to the tower. After the dissipation devices were installed, there were no more direct strikes to the tower.

Because of the experience with the Athens tower, management decided to install dissipation devices on all of the company owned two-way radio towers and microwave towers (well over 150-towers throughout the State of Texas) and on all of the data centers throughout the system.

These towers ranged from less than 100-feet above ground to over 500-feet above ground and a number of those towers, although the grounding system had been upgraded, were taking regular lightning strikes with damage to equipment. Although a good number of these towers were not located near "manned" locations, there were devices, located at each tower, that could detect lightning strikes and then report the strike, over SCATA radio links, to major, company owned, dispatch centers.

A certain telecommunications engineer was assigned to oversee the implementation of the dissipation devices. This particular person was of the "snake oil" group where dissipation devices were concerned. The dissipation devices were first installed on towers that had a history of repeated lightning strikes, sometimes multiple strikes within a single month. As the dissipation devices were installed, the number of lightning strikes on each tower dropped to ZERO! That is, no strike on the tower, nothing reported over the SCATA links, and no damage, whatsoever, to equipment. The engineer then became a believer in dissipation devices.

At the Comanche Peak Nuclear Steam Electric Station, the Nuclear Regulatory Commission REQUIRED that dissipation devices be installed all over the 2-containment buildings. Frankly, the buildings almost look like porcupines because of all the dissipation brushes installed. The NRC also required a dissipation system to be installed on the "met tower". The "met tower" is an over 200-feet above ground tower on which instruments to detect radiation levels are installed as well as all sorts of weather equipment as well. Obviously, the NRC "believes in" dissipation devices!

My tower has been installed for going on 42-years. The top antennas are 67-feet above ground and I live 1/2-block from the highest point in the City of Richardson, Texas. The tower is the highest thing above ground level for over a 1/2-mile radius. The tower has NEVER been hit by lightning. However, my direct across the street neighbor has lost 3-trees and a chimney to lightning. The "pole pig", electric distribution transformer, that is located at the back corner of my lot, which is well under 100-feet from the tower and over 40-feet below the top of the tower, has taken a direct hit. Again, no hits on the tower.

My philosophy for lightning protection is to make sure that the best possible grounding system is in place "just in case" the site takes a lightning strike. Then, install dissipation devices to greatly reduce the possibility of a strike.

Dissipation devices must be installed directly on the tower, mast, etc. That is, "metal to metal" contact between the device and the item to be protected. There should NOT be a resistor, etc., between the device and the tower, mast, etc.

There are companies that guarantee if their dissipation devices are installed that a lightning strike will never occur. Then, if a strike does happen, the company will "claim" that the devices were not installed correctly. Even when the devices are installed correctly, which is going to be virtually every time, there is always a chance of taking a strike. The purpose of dissipation devices is to reduce, as much as possible, the chances of taking a strike and not to absolutely prevent a strike.
 
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