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installer cut off the #4 ground on the SER

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    #16
    Originally posted by cubgirl View Post
    the meters are the demarcation between supply & load, correct?

    if so, then aren't the tenant disconnects in the gang meter considered to be on the load side?
    There are three different concepts in play here:

    1. POCO wires versus customer wires (NESC rules versus NEC rules among other things.) That demarcation is called the service point. It is often at the meter but may be at the top of the weatherhead for overhead service or where the underground service comes out of the ground. Or any place POCO declares it to be.
    2. Metered versus unmetered. NEC does not care about this distinction at all. POCO does care very strongly. This demarcation is always, by definition, at the meter. The meter has a supply side and a load side too, but that does not count for the rule we are looking at.
    3. This is the big one: Service conductors versus feeder and branch conductors. This demarcation is always at the first overcurrent protection along the wires from the utility. Since the OCPD is always closely associated with a disconnect, that is called the service disconnect. Any unfused disconnects before or after the meter do not count.
    On the POCO side are service conductors, which may also be a service drop or a service lateral but may be customer owned service wires too.

    Service wires are NOT allowed to run inside te building except for a locally defined short distance to get to the main (service) disconnect.
    You do want to have your service disconnect(s) at the meter because if you don't all of the wires going a distance to the two units must stay entirely outside the building.

    What you are using SER for are called feeders, and you have to accept that.
    The ground to neutral bond is in the general area of the service disconnect. From there downstream you must have separate wires for the two (neutral and EGC.)

    Comment


      #17
      Originally posted by cubgirl View Post
      then what are derated feeders? one reason you derate is because of ambient temperature. the lug panel is upstairs & its feeder goes through an attic. the cable was derated for heat.

      AHJ already ok'd it but our AHJ is a joke in my opinion...
      What he was getting at was the fact that service conductors must hit a service disconnecting means before/at/near the point of entry to a building. Beyond service disconnecting means you must keep separate grounded and equipment grounding conductors. Your installer very likely clipped the EGC that is required to be separate from the grounded conductor in your installation and now you either have no equipment grounding at all or it is improperly done via the grounded conductor.
      I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

      Comment


        #18
        so i'm going to get this fixed ASAP... i've been advised to get a splice box to splice the #4 GND on the SER but that solution bothers me a bit. there is no GND left at the meter end. we could splice it in the middle of the SER (at least the 35' 2/0; the 1/0 would be more difficult as most of it is in conduit) but i'd rather have a non-spliced ground wire.

        is a better solution just buying a sheathed #4 and running it separately in parallel to the SER?

        here is the schematic of the meter main. my plan is to run #4 to the N2/EQPT GND bus/bar (which is already bonded by the manufacturer, is that right??) and the other end will to the ground bar at the panel.

        at each siemens panel (schematics attached), i'm going to ensure the neutral and ground bus/bars are NOT bonded together. they're not bonded at the factory, right? so unless a jumper is installed, i can assume they are not bonded.

        taking these steps will fix everything, is that correct? is there anything else i need to know or do??

        thanks for your help. i appreciate it very much.
        cub
        Attached Files

        Comment


          #19
          Seems to me unless the run is really long you are just as well off replacing the cables instead of trying to splice them.
          I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

          Comment


            #20
            Originally posted by cubgirl View Post

            is a better solution just buying a sheathed #4 and running it separately in parallel to the SER?
            Not legal.

            Splice in an enclosure or replace cable.
            [COLOR="blue"]"Electricity is really just organized lightning." George Carlin


            Derek[/COLOR]

            Comment


              #21
              Originally posted by cubgirl View Post
              Is there anything else i need to know or do??
              Yes, the number of a lawyer to get your money back from the person who installed the equipment wrong.
              [COLOR="blue"]"Electricity is really just organized lightning." George Carlin


              Derek[/COLOR]

              Comment


                #22
                Originally posted by cubgirl View Post
                so i'm going to get this fixed ASAP... i've been advised to get a splice box to splice the #4 GND on the SER but that solution bothers me a bit. there is no GND left at the meter end. we could splice it in the middle of the SER (at least the 35' 2/0; the 1/0 would be more difficult as most of it is in conduit) but i'd rather have a non-spliced ground wire.
                Either repair the existing cable by properly splicing it or just start over with a new cable. There is nothing wrong with splicing an EGC.
                Rob

                Moderator

                All responses based on the 2017 NEC unless otherwise noted

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by kwired View Post
                  Seems to me unless the run is really long you are just as well off replacing the cables instead of trying to splice them.
                  i agree but the 2/0-2/0-2/0-4 is 36' long. the 1/0 SER is 15' long so that maybe replaceable.

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Originally posted by infinity View Post
                    Either repair the existing cable by properly splicing it or just start over with a new cable. There is nothing wrong with splicing an EGC.
                    OK... thank you. good to know.

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Originally posted by cubgirl View Post
                      i agree but the 2/0-2/0-2/0-4 is 36' long. the 1/0 SER is 15' long so that maybe replaceable.
                      Cost to splice it may still get you in same price range of a 36' piece, plus you need an accessible space to place the junction box.

                      Maybe buy a new 36 foot piece of 2/0 and use the existing 2/0 to replace the shorter 1/0?
                      I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

                      Comment


                        #26
                        curious as to why the installer bought SER when he/she believed all he/she needed was SEU ?
                        Mike, Dutchess County, NY

                        Comment


                          #27
                          hi & thanks...

                          i supplied material. he was only labor.

                          can i butt splice the EGC with something like this?

                          i'm not getting much info on bonding the panels from the forum. so here's my plan for the panels:

                          1) ensure no bonding to the enclosure from neutral and no bonding of neutral to ground by removing any bonding screws/jumpers, 2) ensure there's bonding to the enclosure on the ground bus/bar.

                          my plan at meter main:

                          1) ensure the grounded service neutral bus/bar is bonded to the enclosure, 2) attach both EGC's to the same bus.

                          then i will have an effective ground fault path.

                          thanks,
                          cub
                          Attached Files

                          Comment


                            #28
                            If they didn't cut it so short that there is nothing left to work with yes you can splice on to it with that or many other products. Would not even need the insulating sleeve on an EGC.

                            I don't know what makes people cut a conductor really short in situations like that where they don't intend to use them, whether they were right or wrong to not use it is it's own story, but don't make it unusable I always leave an unused conductor available should you want to use it sometime down the road. Exception may be a cord cap or something where there just is no room for extra conductors at all.
                            I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

                            Comment


                              #29
                              [COLOR=#141414]i hired a licensed electrical company to do this job in April. they did no load calculations; they derated no wires (he acted like he didn't even know what it was). i asked the electrician for 125A in each unit, minimum. what i got was 2-2-2-4 feeders that carry 90A, and even while they were installing, they assured me the feeders had 125A ampacity. then they put in 100A tenant breakers & 100A mains in the subpanels. they must've thought i was a total fool.[/COLOR]

                              [COLOR=#141414]so i fired them and bought new feeders and new subpanels to fix their crummy work. i had to have a minimum of a 125A panel w/ 60A double pole for tankless water heater in one of the units (the smallest one). i figured out how to do my own load calcs and 125A was the MINIMUM required in each unit to support the load.[/COLOR]

                              [COLOR=#141414]i got a friend to help me fix this because i knew i could not handle the 1/0 and 2/0 SER's. unfortunately, he cut the EGC's. now i'm fixing his mistake. however, his error is more acceptable because, while it's wrong, it was at least an honest mistake.[/COLOR]

                              [COLOR=#141414]after i realized the electrician screwed me, i called the AHJ but here, in my neck of the woods, the AHJ is a joke. i went to them about the load calcs, the non-de-rated cable and the fact i got two 100A panels when i was told i'd get two 125A. the AHJ doesn't really check their work, but goes by what the contractor signs off on what he SAYS he did. the AHJ guy said he can't force contractors to do load calcs or to install derated cables... he said the contractors would call the mayor who would then call his boss & his job would be in jeopardy. that's when i realized the AHJ & contractors are in bed together and neither one give a rat's a$$ about the end customers. it's a giant good ole boy system here.[/COLOR]

                              [COLOR=#141414]so i'm on my own...[/COLOR]

                              [COLOR=#141414]if anyone wants to impart electrical knowledge to help i'd appreciate that. if not that's OK too; i'm figuring it out on my own.[/COLOR]

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Originally posted by cubgirl View Post
                                [COLOR=#141414]i hired a licensed electrical company to do this job in April. they did no load calculations; they derated no wires (he acted like he didn't even know what it was). i asked the electrician for 125A in each unit, minimum. what i got was 2-2-2-4 feeders that carry 90A, and even while they were installing, they assured me the feeders had 125A ampacity. then they put in 100A tenant breakers & 100A mains in the subpanels. they must've thought i was a total fool.[/COLOR]

                                [COLOR=#141414]so i fired them and bought new feeders and new subpanels to fix their crummy work. i had to have a minimum of a 125A panel w/ 60A double pole for tankless water heater in one of the units (the smallest one). i figured out how to do my own load calcs and 125A was the MINIMUM required in each unit to support the load.[/COLOR]

                                [COLOR=#141414]i got a friend to help me fix this because i knew i could not handle the 1/0 and 2/0 SER's. unfortunately, he cut the EGC's. now i'm fixing his mistake. however, his error is more acceptable because, while it's wrong, it was at least an honest mistake.[/COLOR]

                                [COLOR=#141414]after i realized the electrician screwed me, i called the AHJ but here, in my neck of the woods, the AHJ is a joke. i went to them about the load calcs, the non-de-rated cable and the fact i got two 100A panels when i was told i'd get two 125A. the AHJ doesn't really check their work, but goes by what the contractor signs off on what he SAYS he did. the AHJ guy said he can't force contractors to do load calcs or to install derated cables... he said the contractors would call the mayor who would then call his boss & his job would be in jeopardy. that's when i realized the AHJ & contractors are in bed together and neither one give a rat's a$$ about the end customers. it's a giant good ole boy system here.[/COLOR]

                                [COLOR=#141414]so i'm on my own...[/COLOR]

                                [COLOR=#141414]if anyone wants to impart electrical knowledge to help i'd appreciate that. if not that's OK too; i'm figuring it out on my own.[/COLOR]
                                If the 2-2-2-4 was feeding entire dwelling unit it was acceptable per 310.15 (B)(7) to put it on a 100 amp breaker. They possibly were used to doing that frequently and knew it was acceptable but maybe not aware of why.

                                But still a problem if you needed a 125 amp feeder. With (B)(7) and 125 amp - you are about 4 amps too much for #1 so 1/0 Aluminum is what would be required.
                                I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

                                Comment

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