Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Aboveground Pool

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    #16
    680.30 specifically applies to these "portable" pools, which also says 680 Part-I applies. bonding is described in 680 Part-II.

    Electrical installations for storable pools, storable spas, and storable
    hot tubs must also comply with Part I of Article 680.

    Author’s Comment:
    The requirements contained in Part I of Article 680 include
    the locations of switches, receptacles, and luminaires.

    Comment


      #17
      Originally posted by FionaZuppa View Post
      680.30 specifically applies to these "portable" pools, which also says 680 Part-I applies.
      Hang on my friend, you have not followed along all the way.

      Many times the topic comes up if the NEC applies beyond the outlet. I for one feel it does. However there are intelligent and respected people including some of the other mods here that feel the NEC does not apply to things that are not 'installed' per 90.2(A)

      90.2 Scope.
      (A) Covered. This Code covers the installation of electrical
      conductors, equipment, and raceways; signaling and communications
      conductors, equipment, and raceways; and optical
      fiber cables and raceways for the following:
      Now if an item is not 'installed' (no NFPA definition of installed available) it is outside the scope of the NEC as defined by 90.2(A) then nothing in 680 applies.

      Comment


        #18
        i think its a big fail if one was to just plop a perm/portable/storable pool or spa into a location where everything around it was simply "existing" and expect all that to be NEC exempt.

        as far as that fence goes, 4ft is close enough for me to bond it (nec says out to 3ft). and that fence likely has high ohms between it and earth, the poles are likely in concrete. i would still add a earth rod near the fence regardless of those who think it serves no purpose.

        OP wanted to know about being compliant with NEC , AND, to possibly make it safer. OP also noted its been there for a long time. its more of a portable/perm item than it is storable in its use. a copper bond ring tied to fence and pool pump is the way i would "make it safer". and if a truely portable unit it should have GFI on the plug, but i would opt to swap the breaker to GFI for the BC feeding that pool gear.

        Comment


          #19
          Originally posted by FionaZuppa View Post
          i think its a big fail if one was to just plop a perm/portable/storable pool or spa into a location where everything around it was simply "existing" and expect all that to be NEC exempt.
          It has nothing to do with existing it has to do with installation

          If you place a table lamp on a table and plug it in did you install it? I say yes but many say no.


          as far as that fence goes, 4ft is close enough for me to bond it (nec says out to 3ft). and that fence likely has high ohms between it and earth, the poles are likely in concrete. i would still add a earth rod near the fence regardless of those who think it serves no purpose.
          Bond it, that is a safety improvement. Adding a ground rod will do nothing but provide exercise to the person pounding it in.


          Concrete is not an insulator, if it was concrete encased electrodes would not be effective yet they are.

          Comment


            #20
            an earth rod directly into the earth will be way different than same rod being encased in concrete and inserted into the ground. i am not suggesting earth rod for bonding purposes, its there to provide additional electrical paths for the grounding system. the MH video showed three earth rods many feet apart providing ~20 ohms back to service. this is a safety benefit for a few $$ in some earth rods.

            Originally posted by iwire View Post
            Concrete is not an insulator, if it was concrete encased electrodes would not be effective yet they are.
            whaaa? insulator is inverse of conductor. if you wish to normalize, pick one, everything is an insulator, or everything is a conductor. i think that was in my EE101 ~25yrs ago.
            Last edited by FionaZuppa; 07-19-16, 11:48 AM.

            Comment


              #21
              Originally posted by FionaZuppa View Post
              an earth rod directly into the earth will be way different than same rod being encased in concrete and inserted into the ground. i am not suggesting earth rod for bonding purposes, its there to provide additional electrical paths for the grounding system. the MH video showed three earth rods many feet apart providing ~20 ohms back to service. this is a safety benefit for a few $$ in some earth rods.

              And the benefit of getting the resistance down to 20 ohms is supposed to do what? How would we be able to permanently guarantee any low resistance? This has been discussed here ad nauseum for a long time- you may want to really re-think your position on rods. Also, think hard about concrete.......

              Comment


                #22
                Originally posted by FionaZuppa View Post
                an earth rod directly into the earth will be way different than same rod being encased in concrete and inserted into the ground.
                Yes, it will be different, likely lower resistance due to the increased surface area the concrete presents to the earth.



                i am not suggesting earth rod for bonding purposes, its there to provide additional electrical paths for the grounding system. the MH video showed three earth rods many feet apart providing ~20 ohms back to service. this is a safety benefit for a few $$ in some earth rods.
                Can you give me link and a time where Mike tells us adding ground rods to the pools equal potential bond is a safety benefit?


                whaaa? insulator is inverse of conductor.
                I am saying concrete is an effective grounding electrode due to the conductivity of concrete.

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by iwire View Post
                  If you place a table lamp on a table and plug it in did you install it? I say yes but many say no.
                  Would the second paragraph in the Article 100 definition of "premises wiring system" influence your viewpoint?

                  Keep in mind that we all speak at least two languages that are very different from each other. One is the language of our profession. The other I like to call "conversational English." In the latter, I have no problem saying that plugging a table lamp into a receptacle is "installing it." In the former, however, I don't think it fits in with the 90.2(A) phrase, "installation of electrical . . . equipment."

                  Charles E. Beck, P.E., Seattle
                  Comments based on 2017 NEC unless otherwise noted.

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Originally posted by charlie b View Post
                    Would the second paragraph in the Article 100 definition of "premises wiring system" influence your viewpoint?

                    Keep in mind that we all speak at least two languages that are very different from each other. One is the language of our profession. The other I like to call "conversational English." In the latter, I have no problem saying that plugging a table lamp into a receptacle is "installing it." In the former, however, I don't think it fits in with the 90.2(A) phrase, "installation of electrical . . . equipment."

                    but interestingly, nec 680 defines the scope as both installation of "electrical" and "equipment"

                    The requirements contained in Article 680 apply to the installation of
                    electric wiring and equipment for swimming pools, hot tubs, spas,
                    fountains, and hydromassage bathtubs
                    Originally posted by iwire View Post
                    Can you give me link and a time where Mike tells us adding ground rods to the pools equal potential bond is a safety benefit?
                    I am saying concrete is an effective grounding electrode due to the conductivity of concrete.
                    i never said MH tells us to use them when bonding pools. i only mentioned them to better the grounding system as MH shows in his video, i then also say that taking those earth rods to the bonding grid is beneficial.

                    now i'll flip your question, can you provide link to evidence that shows better earth grounding by encasing in concrete. in practical use you would not bore a 8" hole 10-20ft deep, put a earth rod or fence post in, and then fill with concrete. the comparison was a 10-20 earth rod directly into the earth, vs what you say is better that the existing fence post in perhaps 18" deep x 6" dia concrete provides lower ohms into earth back to service.
                    Last edited by FionaZuppa; 07-19-16, 01:01 PM.

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Originally posted by FionaZuppa View Post
                      i never said MH tells us to use them when bonding pools.
                      You certainly insinuated it but OK.

                      i only mentioned them to better the grounding system as MH shows in his video, i then also say that taking those earth rods to the bonding grid is beneficial.
                      The bonding is not grounding and additional grounding to the bonding system is not beneficial to its performance.





                      now i'll flip your question, can you provide link to evidence that shows better earth grounding by encasing in concrete.

                      http://www.psihq.com/iread/ufergrnd.htm

                      And keep in mind this discovery was in one of the most arid areas of the US


                      in practical use you would not bore a 8" hole 10-20ft deep, put a earth rod or fence post in, and then fill with concrete. the comparison was a 10-20 earth rod directly into the earth, vs what you say is better that the existing fence post in perhaps 18" deep x 6" dia concrete provides lower ohms into earth back to service.
                      The ohms to remote earth figure is not relevant for pool bonding systems. The person in the pool cannot contact remote earth.

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Originally posted by charlie b View Post
                        [SIZE=4][FONT=times new roman] Would the second paragraph in the Article 100 definition of "premises wiring system" influence your viewpoint?
                        Not really as that is talking about internal wiring of appliances.

                        Comment


                          #27
                          For the question being asked, I could not find a model number for the pool anywhere. I purchased a water bonding kit that is tee into the bottom of the skimmer line connected a #8 solid to the lug on the motor. I was able to remove a small part of the covering above the side support of the pool found them to be non metalic. I am not sure about the shell of the pool or the base. I spoke to a pool worker and could not get a straight answer.
                          I do have a question about the fence should i bond a fence post to the motor lug ?

                          Thanks again all the replys to this post.

                          Comment


                            #28
                            i would bond the fence. at a fence post i would try to clamp the copper to the fencing itself and the pole.
                            is the ladder metal or all plastic?

                            Comment


                              #29
                              ladder is plastic going to wooden deck.

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Originally posted by bure961 View Post
                                ladder is plastic going to wooden deck.
                                a wooden deck? hmmm, i would bond that too. search for methods for bonding wooden decks.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X