CSST bonding to sub panel

[Dennis Alwon]

It says connect to the grounding electrode system.

It would be thru the equipment grounding conductor of the panel back to the main panel. It is all connected together

 

[Dennis Alwon]

If I can splice the bond wire then what is the difference if I spliced it back to the panel. I know you can connect the INTERSYSTEM BONDING back to the panel..

 

[Jamesco]

It would be thru the equipment grounding conductor of the panel back to the main panel. It is all connected together

Are they the same as defined by the NEC?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Are they the same as defined by the NEC?

I don't understand your question. The equipment grounding conductor is not the same as a bonding jumper-the conductor from the csst. But I don't see anywhere where I cannot splice the bonding jumper, connect it to the equipment grounding conductor which in turn is connected to the grounding electrode system.

In fact, 250 121 exception specifically allows the equipment grounding conductor to be used as a grounding electrode conductor. That is not exactly what we have here but it leads some credence to the install, IMO. I may be wrong about this especially if the gas code won't allow the splice- I don't believe there is anything in there that says you cannot splice the bonding conductor

 

[Jamesco]

I don't understand your question. The equipment grounding conductor is not the same as a bonding jumper-the conductor from the csst. But I don't see anywhere where I cannot splice the bonding jumper, connect it to the equipment grounding conductor which in turn is connected to the grounding electrode system.

In fact, 250 121 exception specifically allows the equipment grounding conductor to be used as a grounding electrode conductor. That is not exactly what we have here but it leads some credence to the install, IMO. I may be wrong about this especially if the gas code won't allow the splice- I don't believe there is anything in there that says you cannot splice the bonding conductor

The 2018 International Fuel Gas Code® (IFGC®) says it connects to the grounding electrode system.

"The permanent bonding of corrugated stainless steel tubing (CSST) piping system directly to the grounding electrode system of the structure in which the CSST is installed will lower the voltage build-up on the CSST caused by unintentional energizing from outside sources such as power surges and lightning strikes."
https://cdn-web.iccsafe.org/wp-content/uploads/PMG_CodeNotes_CSST.pdf

 

[kec]

Is there anywhere in the gas code that states the connection must be continuous? I don't think so so if the equipment grounding conductor to the sub panel is a #6 then the csst bonding should be allowed to connect to that panel.

This is exactly what my post was implying

 

[Dennis Alwon]

The 2018 International Fuel Gas Code® (IFGC®) says it connects to the grounding electrode system.

"The permanent bonding of corrugated stainless steel tubing (CSST) piping system directly to the grounding electrode system of the structure in which the CSST is installed will lower the voltage build-up on the CSST caused by unintentional energizing from outside sources such as power surges and lightning strikes."
https://cdn-web.iccsafe.org/wp-content/uploads/PMG_CodeNotes_CSST.pdf

It will be connected to the grounding electrode system. That is what I am trying to tell you

Are you saying that I must connect to the ground rod or other electrode and cannot connect it to the main panel which is connected to the ground rod or other electrodes.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

This is exactly what my post was implying

IMO, if the equipment grounding conductor of the panel is properly sized for the csst bonding then I would think you would be compliant however, I am sure there are others who feel differently

 

[Jamesco]

This is exactly what my post was implying

You cannot use the equipment grounding conductor of the sub panel.

Here are a couple of Web Links for you to read.
https://www.ecmweb.com/bonding-amp-...t-bond-corrugated-stainless-steel-tubing-csst

https://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=169232

In my State the yellow jacket CSST can no longer be used for new installs. The black jacket CSST is now required (I believe 2018). Ground bonding is still required.

Yellow CSST is not grand fathered in. For a used house to be sold the existing yellow jacket CSST, (if not already bonded to the grounding electrode system), must be bonded to the grounding electrode system by a licensed electrician.

 

[Jamesco]

It will be connected to the grounding electrode system. That is what I am trying to tell you

Are you saying that I must connect to the ground rod or other electrode and cannot connect it to the main panel which is connected to the ground rod or other electrodes.

I am saying the Gas Code says it must connect to the grounding electrode system of the electrical service. Not to the equipment grounding conductor of a sub panel.

 

[LarryFine]

I guess it depends on your definitions of "connected" and "directly".

We're agreed that the bond must be to the incoming "line side" of any CSST, to protect the CSST from current caused by nearby lightning strikes seeking earth through EGCs, right?

Thus, the best place to land the other end is that point of the electrical system that the induced current is seeking; to wit: the earth. Ergo, that point is the GEC conductor, or is it?

What point is that? It could be an earth electrode (ideally, which I usually use), a water-pipe GEC (which may not be a qualified electrode), or the bus in the panel the GECs land on.

Which of those points meet the definition of a "direct connection" to the GEC system? What is the system? It can be the neutral-EGC bonding bus, or a conductor-connected EGC bus.

Where does the GEC "system" start? What connected parts are considered beyond or not part of that system? How direct must a connection be to be considered a direct connection?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I am saying the Gas Code says it must connect to the grounding electrode system of the electrical service. Not to the equipment grounding conductor of a sub panel.

You keep saying the same thing and I keep saying the same... Does the code say I cannot use the equipment grounding conductor as a means to get back to the grounding electrode system. I don't think so. That is my point as Larry states above.

It doesn't say that the csst must be directly connected to a rod or to a main panel just that it it must be connected to the grounding electrode system.

Isn't the neutral connected to the grounding electrode system? The equipment grounding conductor is connected to the grounding electrode system also so the bonding is connected to the grounding electrode system. I don't know how else to say it.

 

[Jamesco]

You keep saying the same thing and I keep saying the same... Does the code say I cannot use the equipment grounding conductor as a means to get back to the grounding electrode system. I don't think so. That is my point as Larry states above.

It doesn't say that the csst must be directly connected to a rod or to a main panel just that it it must be connected to the grounding electrode system.

Isn't the neutral connected to the grounding electrode system? The equipment grounding conductor is connected to the grounding electrode system also so the bonding is connected to the grounding electrode system. I don't know how else to say it.

Dennis,

Does the NEC consider, say, an equipment grounding conductor is part of the grounding electrode system?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Dennis,

Does the NEC consider, say, an equipment grounding conductor is part of the grounding electrode system?

No it is not part of the grounding electrode system but that is a moot point... Is the bond to the csst part of the grounding electrode system? No as the csst is not an electrode.

 

[Jamesco]

No it is not part of the grounding electrode system but that is a moot point... Is the bond to the csst part of the grounding electrode system? No as the csst is not an electrode.

"No it is not part of the grounding electrode system"

Thank you.

" but that is a moot point... Is the bond to the csst part of the grounding electrode system? No as the csst is not an electrode.

And neither is the bond from the grounding block of a CATV system, or the bond for an antenna or the bond for a satellite dish.

Who says the CSST gas pipe must be connected to the grounding electrode system?
The International Fuel Gas Code® (IFGC®).

Direct Bonding of Standard (Yellow) CSST

Direct bonding is required for gas piping systems incorporating standard (yellow) or uncoated CSST whether or not the connected gas equipment is electrically powered. This requirement is provided as part of the manufacturer's instruction for single-family and multi-family buildings and required by the 2009 and later editions of the National Fuel Gas Code, the International Fuel Gas Code and the Uniform Plumbing Code. A person knowledgeable in electrical system design, the local electrical code and these requirements should specify the bonding for commercial applications.

Standard CSST installed inside or attached to a building or structure shall be electrically continuous and direct-bonded to the electrical ground system of the premises in which it is installed. The gas piping system shall be considered to be direct-bonded when installed in accordance with the following:

The bonding conductor is permanently and directly connected to the electrical service equipment enclosure, the grounded conductor at the electrical service, the grounding electrode conductor, or to one or more of the grounding electrodes used. When an additional grounding electrode(s) is used for the gas service, it shall be bonded to the electrical service grounding electrode system or, where provided, the lightning protection grounding system. For single and multi-family structures a single bond connection shall be made on an accessible rigid piping component or CSST fitting located downstream of the utility gas meter or second-stage LP regulator. The bonding clamp attachment point may be at any location within the gas piping system. However, the shortest practical bonding wire length will improve the effectiveness of the direct-bond. The corrugated stainless steel tubing portion of the gas piping system shall not be used as the point of attachment of the bonding clamp under any circumstances.(Fig.1,2)

The bonding conductor shall be no smaller than a 6 AWG copper wire or equivalent. The bonding conductor shall be installed and protected in accordance with the National Electrical Code, NFPA70, (NEC) and Canadian Electrical Code CSA-C22.1 (CEC). Bonding/grounding clamps shall be installed in accordance with its listing per UL 467 and shall make metal-to-metal contact with a rigid pipe component or CSST fitting. This direct-bond is in addition to any other bonding requirements as specified by local codes for ground fault protection.

The 2018 edition of the National Fuel Gas Code, International Fuel Gas Code, and Uniform Plumbing Code limits the length of the bonding conductor to 75-ft. When there are no local code requirements for the length of this conductor refer to the manufactures instructions or the NEC/ CEC for guidance regarding the permissible length of the bonding conductor

http://www.csstsafety.com/Images/CSST-Direct-Bonding-Tech-Bulletin.pdf

 

[LarryFine]

The next part of the text:

The gas piping system shall be considered to be direct-bonded when installed in accordance with the following:

The bonding conductor is permanently and directly connected to the electrical service equipment enclosure, the grounded conductor at the electrical service, the grounding electrode conductor, or to one or more of the grounding electrodes used.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Now that someone has shown an article as stated above I have to concede. It should still state, without splice, IMO but it does appear to mean without a splice.

I notice that 75' is the max..... what do you do if you can't get within 75'?

 

[romex jockey]

I notice that 75' is the max..... what do you do if you can't get within 75'?

I'll go out on a limb and simply state, there's a point where codes fail us, and theory should previal

~RJ~

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I'll go out on a limb and simply state, there's a point where codes fail us, and theory should previal

~RJ~

I would never do an install as suggested by the op unless there was no other way and it was compliant. I just didn't see anything that didn't allow it. Now that other info came out I have to accept that it cannot be spliced.

Strange enough because if I connect it to a service panel then my conductor is spliced to the grounding electrode system.

 

[romex jockey]

I'm a tad fixated on why we're required to in the first place Den, consider past codes that dictated no bonding, then it was w/in 6' , then bond it all

The specifics of splice/don't splice become inconsequential to me in light of the revolving codes that have had to be predicated on theory revisited.

~RJ~