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    #31
    I guess it depends on your definitions of "connected" and "directly".

    We're agreed that the bond must be to the incoming "line side" of any CSST, to protect the CSST from current caused by nearby lightning strikes seeking earth through EGCs, right?

    Thus, the best place to land the other end is that point of the electrical system that the induced current is seeking; to wit: the earth. Ergo, that point is the GEC conductor, or is it?

    What point is that? It could be an earth electrode (ideally, which I usually use), a water-pipe GEC (which may not be a qualified electrode), or the bus in the panel the GECs land on.

    Which of those points meet the definition of a "direct connection" to the GEC system? What is the system? It can be the neutral-EGC bonding bus, or a conductor-connected EGC bus.

    Where does the GEC "system" start? What connected parts are considered beyond or not part of that system? How direct must a connection be to be considered a direct connection?
    Master Electrician
    Electrical Contractor
    Richmond, VA

    Comment


      #32
      Originally posted by Jamesco View Post
      I am saying the Gas Code says it must connect to the grounding electrode system of the electrical service. Not to the equipment grounding conductor of a sub panel.

      You keep saying the same thing and I keep saying the same... Does the code say I cannot use the equipment grounding conductor as a means to get back to the grounding electrode system. I don't think so. That is my point as Larry states above.

      It doesn't say that the csst must be directly connected to a rod or to a main panel just that it it must be connected to the grounding electrode system.

      Isn't the neutral connected to the grounding electrode system? The equipment grounding conductor is connected to the grounding electrode system also so the bonding is connected to the grounding electrode system. I don't know how else to say it.
      They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy
      She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me
      I can't help it if I'm lucky

      Comment


        #33
        Originally posted by Dennis Alwon View Post
        You keep saying the same thing and I keep saying the same... Does the code say I cannot use the equipment grounding conductor as a means to get back to the grounding electrode system. I don't think so. That is my point as Larry states above.

        It doesn't say that the csst must be directly connected to a rod or to a main panel just that it it must be connected to the grounding electrode system.

        Isn't the neutral connected to the grounding electrode system? The equipment grounding conductor is connected to the grounding electrode system also so the bonding is connected to the grounding electrode system. I don't know how else to say it.
        Dennis,

        Does the NEC consider, say, an equipment grounding conductor is part of the grounding electrode system?

        Comment


          #34
          Originally posted by Jamesco View Post
          Dennis,

          Does the NEC consider, say, an equipment grounding conductor is part of the grounding electrode system?

          No it is not part of the grounding electrode system but that is a moot point... Is the bond to the csst part of the grounding electrode system? No as the csst is not an electrode.
          They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy
          She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me
          I can't help it if I'm lucky

          Comment


            #35
            Originally posted by Dennis Alwon View Post
            No it is not part of the grounding electrode system but that is a moot point... Is the bond to the csst part of the grounding electrode system? No as the csst is not an electrode.
            "No it is not part of the grounding electrode system"

            Thank you.

            " but that is a moot point... Is the bond to the csst part of the grounding electrode system? No as the csst is not an electrode.

            And neither is the bond from the grounding block of a CATV system, or the bond for an antenna or the bond for a satellite dish.

            Who says the CSST gas pipe must be connected to the grounding electrode system?
            The International Fuel Gas Code® (IFGC®).


            Direct Bonding of Standard (Yellow) CSST

            Direct bonding is required for gas piping systems incorporating standard (yellow) or uncoated CSST whether or not the connected gas equipment is electrically powered. This requirement is provided as part of the manufacturer's instruction for single-family and multi-family buildings and required by the 2009 and later editions of the National Fuel Gas Code, the International Fuel Gas Code and the Uniform Plumbing Code. A person knowledgeable in electrical system design, the local electrical code and these requirements should specify the bonding for commercial applications.

            Standard CSST installed inside or attached to a building or structure shall be electrically continuous and direct-
            bonded to the electrical ground system of the premises in which it is installed. The gas piping system shall be considered to be direct-bonded when installed in accordance with the following:

            The bonding conductor is permanently and directly connected to the electrical service equipment enclosure, the
            grounded conductor at the electrical service, the grounding electrode conductor, or to one or more of the grounding electrodes used. When an additional grounding electrode(s) is used for the gas service, it shall be bonded to the electrical service grounding electrode system or, where provided, the lightning protection grounding system. For single and multi-family structures a single bond connection shall be made on an accessible rigid piping component or CSST fitting located downstream of the utility gas meter or second-stage LP regulator. The bonding clamp attachment point may be at any location within the gas piping system. However, the shortest practical bonding wire length will improve the effectiveness of the direct-bond. The corrugated stainless steel tubing portion of the gas piping system shall not be used as the point of attachment of the bonding clamp under any circumstances.(Fig.1,2)

            The bonding conductor shall be no smaller than a 6 AWG copper wire or equivalent. The bonding conductor shall be
            installed and protected in accordance with the National Electrical Code, NFPA70, (NEC) and Canadian Electrical Code CSA-C22.1 (CEC). Bonding/grounding clamps shall be installed in accordance with its listing per UL 467 and shall make metal-to-metal contact with a rigid pipe component or CSST fitting. This direct-bond is in addition to any other bonding requirements as specified by local codes for ground fault protection.

            The 201
            8 edition of the National Fuel Gas Code, International Fuel Gas Code, and Uniform Plumbing Code limits the length of the bonding conductor to 75-ft. When there are no local code requirements for the length of this conductor refer to the manufactures instructions or the NEC/ CEC for guidance regarding the permissible length of the bonding conductor

            http://www.csstsafety.com/Images/CSS...h-Bulletin.pdf

            Comment


              #36
              The next part of the text:

              The gas piping system shall be considered to be direct-bonded when installed in accordance with the following:

              The bonding conductor is permanently and directly connected to the electrical service equipment enclosure, the
              grounded conductor at the electrical service, the grounding electrode conductor, or to one or more of the grounding electrodes used.
              Master Electrician
              Electrical Contractor
              Richmond, VA

              Comment


                #37
                Now that someone has shown an article as stated above I have to concede. It should still state, without splice, IMO but it does appear to mean without a splice.

                I notice that 75' is the max..... what do you do if you can't get within 75'?
                They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy
                She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me
                I can't help it if I'm lucky

                Comment


                  #38
                  Originally posted by Dennis Alwon View Post
                  I notice that 75' is the max..... what do you do if you can't get within 75'?
                  I'll go out on a limb and simply state, there's a point where codes fail us, and theory should previal

                  ~RJ~

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Originally posted by romex jockey View Post
                    I'll go out on a limb and simply state, there's a point where codes fail us, and theory should previal

                    ~RJ~
                    I would never do an install as suggested by the op unless there was no other way and it was compliant. I just didn't see anything that didn't allow it. Now that other info came out I have to accept that it cannot be spliced.

                    Strange enough because if I connect it to a service panel then my conductor is spliced to the grounding electrode system.
                    They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy
                    She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me
                    I can't help it if I'm lucky

                    Comment


                      #40
                      I'm a tad fixated on why we're required to in the first place Den, consider past codes that dictated no bonding, then it was w/in 6' , then bond it all

                      The specifics of splice/don't splice become inconsequential to me in light of the revolving codes that have had to be predicated on theory revisited.

                      ~RJ~

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Csst has had a history of failure on lightning strikes. Lightning would slit open the csst and create a torch effect. That is when they started to require the bonding. After hundred of millions of dollars from the lawsuit they had to do something
                        They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy
                        She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me
                        I can't help it if I'm lucky

                        Comment


                          #42
                          Ah, well, seems i was a tad too focused on theory & mother nature to realize many codes are bourne of litigation.....and so we can probably guess the CSST manufacturers went to the nfpa for us to toddle along behind every gas man & install this bonding bandaid....small wonder why we need millions of liability insurance....we could blow houses up.....maybe whole nieghborhoods...



                          ~RJ~

                          Comment


                            #43
                            Originally posted by Dennis Alwon View Post

                            I notice that 75' is the max..... what do you do if you can't get within 75'?
                            Add a Supplemental Electrode, (ground rod), and bond it to the existing ground rod. 250.53 (2)
                            Bond the CSST to the new rod. Gas code is met.

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Originally posted by Dennis Alwon View Post
                              We have talked about this csst going to the intersystem bonding but at the big meetings it was stated that the intersystem bonding unit was not listed for bonding of csst. Local inspectors still allow it at times however most units have only 3 ports for other utilities so if you use one for the intersystem then you only have 2 left. Can one argue that the csst is another system???
                              Pretty sure it is not part of the electrical system, so any bonding to it would be bonding of another system wouldn't it?

                              The ISBT is required to go at the service or first disconnect which is where the GEC is typically going to land, or it connects directly to the GEC. Can't get too much better path to the GEC than that, no reason it can't be listed for this other than someone is too reluctant to look at it that way. ISBT maybe first came about as a way to bond to communications, but why not a way to bond anything outside the electrical system? Certainly worded like it means anything outside the electrical system.

                              Originally posted by Jamesco View Post
                              Are they the same as defined by the NEC?
                              Originally posted by Jamesco View Post

                              Who says the CSST gas pipe must be connected to the grounding electrode system?
                              The International Fuel Gas Code® (IFGC®).



                              http://www.csstsafety.com/Images/CSS...h-Bulletin.pdf
                              Yea for IFGC, I am not a gas piping installer, let the installer run his own bonding wire to a terminal on the inter system bonding termination, or to the GEC just don't cut it and compromise the electrical install, it is what it is there for - other systems even though some think it is only for communications it probably should be for any other systems.
                              I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

                              Comment


                                #45
                                Originally posted by Jamesco View Post
                                Add a Supplemental Electrode, (ground rod), and bond it to the existing ground rod. 250.53 (2)
                                Bond the CSST to the new rod. Gas code is met.

                                I would not feel comfortable with that although I agree it meets code. Another method is get the hvac company to extend their gas pipe. There is almost always some black iron that enters the building near the meter and panel area so we just bond to that. I know there are some cases where the situation is different and problemsome.
                                They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy
                                She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me
                                I can't help it if I'm lucky

                                Comment

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