CSST bonding to sub panel

[Jamesco]

I screwed up my last post, (#60). Edit time, timed out.

Originally Posted by Jamesco
It's work, why would you want to give it away?

romex jockey

high liability, low profit....

You didn't furnish or install the CSST piping.

If a termination fitting is installed on the outside of the house connect the ground clamp to the black iron pipe nipple.


If a circuit breaker malfunctions and doesn't trip in the event of a serous arc fault, and causes a house fire, are you liable for the defective breaker?

 

[kwired]

For some reason, the gas utility here still requires the black CSST and black iron to have additional bonding in addition to the bond from the equipment ground. Something to do with lawyers I'm guessing.

Me to gas man -Get yourself some 6 AWG, there is the GEC - have at it, NEC is satisfied with the EGC of the circuits to gas appliances for bonding the gas piping.

You didn't furnish or install the CSST piping.

If a termination fitting is installed on the outside of the house connect the ground clamp to the black iron pipe nipple.


If a circuit breaker malfunctions and doesn't trip in the event of a serous arc fault, and causes a house fire, are you liable for the defective breaker?

I ran an EGC to the furnace, water heater, etc. and have complied with the NEC. Installing said bonding is part of the listing instructions of the CSST, I am not a CSST installer.

Am I liable for a defective breaker? If I installed it, I sort of expect to be the first one a finger gets pointed at, and then I will be pointing finger at supplier/manufacturer.

 

[romex jockey]

Am I liable for a defective breaker? If I installed it, I sort of expect to be the first one a finger gets pointed at, and then I will be pointing finger at supplier/manufacturer.

Actually iirc, there's a standard to manually test any OCPD annualy, not that it'd much to hang hat on, given liability is all about deeper pockets.

But i digress, that notion will have everyone running around bonding anything that doesn't move , FD's will fill out laxidasical reports w/little to no forensics, which turn into stats for the insurance cabal, which manufacturing reps will hammer cmp's with

We lowly sparks are merely the kickin' post for it all

~RJ~

 

[kwired]

Actually iirc, there's a standard to manually test any OCPD annualy, not that it'd much to hang hat on, given liability is all about deeper pockets. So now I need to increase my price to cover coming back annually to test them? What do I test? Just operate the switch, or actually create a short circuit/ground fault on all of them and make sure they tripped? Then I don't know if it will trip the next time, so I have to do it again and an endless cycle (until it fails anyway) is started

But i digress, that notion will have everyone running around bonding anything that doesn't move , FD's will fill out laxidasical reports w/little to no forensics, which turn into stats for the insurance cabal, which manufacturing reps will hammer cmp's with

We lowly sparks are merely the kickin' post for it all

~RJ~

Pretty much

 

[romex jockey]

Last fall i gotta call from a lady whom the gas guys apparently put the fear of God into over her newley installed CSST, she was rather...excited....

So i went and did my thing

But after this thread, i'm going to rethink that a tad

thx all

~RJ~

 

[kec]

Me to gas man -Get yourself some 6 AWG, there is the GEC - have at it, NEC is satisfied with the EGC of the circuits to gas appliances for bonding the gas piping.

Amen

 

[kec]

While the old method for bonding CSST required a connection at the main electric panel, this is no longer required in Minnesota. Minnesota’s 2015 Fuel Gas Code uses the 2012 International Fuel Gas Code, which requires CSST to be bonded anywhere along the electrical service grounding electrode system. That means that the bonding conductor for CSST can be connected to the metallic water piping coming into the home, a ground rod at the exterior, or anywhere else on the service grounding electrode system. This change makes it much easier to properly bond CSST. To view the current requirement, click the following link to view Chapter 3 of the 2015 Minnesota Fuel Gas Code, and scroll all the way down to the bottom to view section 310.1.1.

Minnesota's view on bonding CSST

 

[kwired]

While the old method for bonding CSST required a connection at the main electric panel, this is no longer required in Minnesota. Minnesota’s 2015 Fuel Gas Code uses the 2012 International Fuel Gas Code, which requires CSST to be bonded anywhere along the electrical service grounding electrode system. That means that the bonding conductor for CSST can be connected to the metallic water piping coming into the home, a ground rod at the exterior, or anywhere else on the service grounding electrode system. This change makes it much easier to properly bond CSST. To view the current requirement, click the following link to view Chapter 3 of the 2015 Minnesota Fuel Gas Code, and scroll all the way down to the bottom to view section 310.1.1.

Minnesota's view on bonding CSST

Some of us have hard enough time keeping up with amendments, AHJ interpretations, etc. as related to NEC, why do we want to keep up with same things as it relates to fuel gas codes, let the HVAC guys earn some of their pay. They certainly aren't afraid of connecting the electric supply to a furnace or AC (and do it wrong):blink:

 

[Jamesco]

While the old method for bonding CSST required a connection at the main electric panel, this is no longer required in Minnesota. Minnesota’s 2015 Fuel Gas Code uses the 2012 International Fuel Gas Code, which requires CSST to be bonded anywhere along the electrical service grounding electrode system. That means that the bonding conductor for CSST can be connected to the metallic water piping coming into the home, a ground rod at the exterior, or anywhere else on the service grounding electrode system. This change makes it much easier to properly bond CSST. To view the current requirement, click the following link to view Chapter 3 of the 2015 Minnesota Fuel Gas Code, and scroll all the way down to the bottom to view section 310.1.1.

Minnesota's view on bonding CSST

The important thing is the CSST is bonded to the grounding electrode system of the electrical service. The ground clamp is connected at the output side of the gas meter or immediately inside the building structure.
NEC 250.104(B) (2),(3),(4), and (5) says the same thing. Though there is no mention of CSST gas piping. It can be black iron pipe. It shall be bonded.

What is a pipe that is buried in the earth that is connected to an EGC of a branch circuit?
Basically it's an Auxiliary Grounding Electrode.

What does Mike Holt say about Auxiliary Grounding Electrodes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuDqXFvRv94

NEC 250.104 (B) (1) should be removed from the code. The EGC is not an effective bonding means for an earthed metallic service gas pipe that is clearly an earth connected electrode.

If #(1) is removed from the NEC 250.104 (B), who is responsible for bonding the gas service metallic pipe/line electrode?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

NEC 250.104 (B) (1) should be removed from the code.

The EGC is not an effective bonding means for an earthed metallic service gas pipe that is clearly an earth connected electrode.

The gas pipe is not an electrode. There is a dielectric fitting at the meter that separates the interior piping from the exterior and art. 250 tells us we cannot use gas pipe as an electrode

250.52(B) Not Permitted for Use as Grounding Electrodes. The
following systems and materials shall not be used as grounding
electrodes:
(1) Metal underground gas piping systems
(2) Aluminum
(3) The structures and structural reinforcing steel described
in 680.26(B)(1) and (B)(2)

 

[kwired]

NEC 250.104 (B) (1) should be removed from the code.

The gas pipe is not an electrode. There is a dielectric fitting at the meter that separates the interior piping from the exterior and art. 250 tells us we cannot use gas pipe as an electrode

:thumbsup:

Was going to mention some of what you did earlier, then got sidetracked.

Underground metallic gas piping also normally has corrosion resistance coatings, and not galvanized or other conductive coatings either. Zinc supposedly don't play well with natural gas and is why you see black pipe and not galvanized pipe used for gas. Copper don't play well with NG either but is sometimes use for LP gas.

 

[NTesla76]

Some of us have hard enough time keeping up with amendments, AHJ interpretations, etc. as related to NEC, why do we want to keep up with same things as it relates to fuel gas codes, let the HVAC guys earn some of their pay. They certainly aren't afraid of connecting the electric supply to a furnace or AC (and do it wrong):blink:

Absolutley the truth!

 

[blkmagik21]

Yeah i pretty much came to the same conclusion Kwired

all i found was>>>

250.104 (B) Other Metal Piping

choices 1 thru 5 , with ref to Table 250.122

I just can't see a piece of #12 being used, pretty sure most any 'bond cu' , or that which would fly around solo would be #8 ,fairly prevalent thru the code

~RJ~

I’ve bonded the gas line at a fireplace off of the 14awg ground that is for the fan. That is all that was likely to energize. Passed time and time again. But all jurisdictions have their own interpretation


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[romex jockey]

But all jurisdictions have their own interpretation

Today's jem.....a vermont bond ,legal as long as it's touching...>>>>

:roll:~RJ~

 

[Jamesco]

NEC 250.104 (B) (1) should be removed from the code.

The gas pipe is not an electrode. There is a dielectric fitting at the meter that separates the interior piping from the exterior and art. 250 tells us we cannot use gas pipe as an electrode

Dennis,

Thanks for setting me straight on the gas meter dielectric fitting/s. I checked my meter after reading your post. Not only does my meter have the fitting on the customer side of the meter it also has one on the supply side of the meter. The short supply side metallic riser gas pipe is insulated from the meter by a dielectric fitting. (I verified checking for continuity with a meter. The gas meter is isolated at both ends.) I learned something new today.

As for the NEC not allowing the gas pipe to be used as an electrode I already knew that. I just always thought the reasoning was because it is a gas line.


.

 

[kwired]

Dennis,

Thanks for setting me straight on the gas meter dielectric fitting/s. I checked my meter after reading your post. Not only does my meter have the fitting on the customer side of the meter it also has one on the supply side of the meter. The short supply side metallic riser gas pipe is insulated from the meter by a dielectric fitting. (I verified checking for continuity with a meter. The gas meter is isolated at both ends.) I learned something new today.

As for the NEC not allowing the gas pipe to be used as an electrode I already knew that. I just always thought the reasoning was because it is a gas line.


.

I think that is a major reason, they don't want to make it become an electrode as much as possible in case of the worst possibility.

Direct lightning strik to a building, it very likely still carries at least some of the current.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Dennis,

Thanks for setting me straight on the gas meter dielectric fitting/s. I checked my meter after reading your post. Not only does my meter have the fitting on the customer side of the meter it also has one on the supply side of the meter. The short supply side metallic riser gas pipe is insulated from the meter by a dielectric fitting. (I verified checking for continuity with a meter. The gas meter is isolated at both ends.) I learned something new today.

As for the NEC not allowing the gas pipe to be used as an electrode I already knew that. I just always thought the reasoning was because it is a gas line.


.

Hey you showed me the info on Csst that would not allow the bonding thru the sub panel....--:thumbsup: