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Wiring pole barn for client in MI

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    Wiring pole barn for client in MI

    Hello. I'm wiring a pole barn for a client in Michigan using PVC conduit from the home to the pole barn. The way I interpret [COLOR=#565A5C]250.122 is that the barn should not be bonded and should not have a separate ground rod but rather the ground in the barn should be run back to the home where it is bonded in the panel and there are ground rods.

    Is this correct?
    [/COLOR]

    #2
    Originally posted by wacnstac View Post
    Hello. I'm wiring a pole barn for a client in Michigan using PVC conduit from the home to the pole barn. The way I interpret [COLOR=#565A5C]250.122 is that the barn should not be bonded and should not have a separate ground rod but rather the ground in the barn should be run back to the home where it is bonded in the panel and there are ground rods.

    Is this correct?
    [/COLOR]
    First of all, 250.122 is for EGC (Equipment Grounding Conductors), which you should run in the feed with the other conductors.
    The panel in the barn would be a subpanel and you're correct in that it should not be bonded, meaning the neutral (grounded conductor) is not bonded to the EGC or panel cabinet.

    You DO need two ground rods (if that's what you are using for a GEC [grounding electrode conductor]). You connect the GEC from the rods to the EGC bar and not the neutral bar.


    Welcome to the forum!
    [COLOR=navy]If you aim at nothing, you will hit it every time![/COLOR]

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      #3
      Originally posted by Little Bill View Post
      First of all, 250.122 is for EGC (Equipment Grounding Conductors), which you should run in the feed with the other conductors.
      The panel in the barn would be a subpanel and you're correct in that it should not be bonded, meaning the neutral (grounded conductor) is not bonded to the EGC or panel cabinet.

      You DO need two ground rods (if that's what you are using for a GEC [grounding electrode conductor]). You connect the GEC from the rods to the EGC bar and not the neutral bar.


      Welcome to the forum!
      Sorry, typo on the NEC section number. There are two ground rods at the house connected to the ground bar at the main panel which is bonded. Does this count as the GEC for the non-bonded ground (at pole barn) running back to the house from the pole barn (and tied into the ground bar at the house)? Or does the non-bonded ground bar at the pole barn need to be connected to two ground rods at the pole barn? This is where the confusion for me always starts when using non metalic feeder conduit to the barn.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by wacnstac View Post
        Or does the non-bonded ground bar at the pole barn need to be connected to two ground rods at the pole barn? This is where the confusion for me always starts when using non metalic feeder conduit to the barn.
        The barn requires its own GES; a metallic conduit does not change this.
        Master Electrician
        Electrical Contractor
        Richmond, VA

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Little Bill View Post
          First of all, 250.122 is for EGC (Equipment Grounding Conductors), which you should run in the feed with the other conductors.
          The panel in the barn would be a subpanel and you're correct in that it should not be bonded, meaning the neutral (grounded conductor) is not bonded to the EGC or panel cabinet.

          [COLOR=#ff0000]You DO need two ground rods (if that's what you are using for a GEC [grounding electrode conductor]). You connect the GEC from the rods to the EGC bar and not the neutral bar.[/COLOR]


          Welcome to the forum!
          Originally posted by wacnstac View Post
          Sorry, typo on the NEC section number. There are two ground rods at the house connected to the ground bar at the main panel which is bonded. Does this count as the GEC for the non-bonded ground (at pole barn) running back to the house from the pole barn (and tied into the ground bar at the house)? Or does the non-bonded ground bar at the pole barn need to be connected to two ground rods at the pole barn? This is where the confusion for me always starts when using non metalic feeder conduit to the barn.
          I said you needed the GES/ground rods (in red above). I did fail to say at the barn but that's what we were talking about and assumed you knew what I meant.
          As Larry said, you need a GES at both the house and the barn and has nothing to do with whether you run a wire EGC or metal conduit.
          [COLOR=navy]If you aim at nothing, you will hit it every time![/COLOR]

          Comment


            #6
            10/4 and thanks.

            Comment


              #7
              What are you running to the "barn"? If it is a multiwire branch circuit you are not required to install a grounding electrode at the second structure. If it is feeder or service you must install a grounding electrode at the second structure. If it is service - you bond the grounded conductor like you do at any other service, since you said you are supplying it from the house it is likely either MWBC or a feeder though. If it is a feeder you still need a grounding electrode at the second structure but you tie it to the EGC instead of the grounded conductor (neutral).
              I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by kwired View Post
                What are you running to the "barn"? If it is a multiwire branch circuit you are not required to install a grounding electrode at the second structure. If it is feeder or service you must install a grounding electrode at the second structure. If it is service - you bond the grounded conductor like you do at any other service, since you said you are supplying it from the house it is likely either MWBC or a feeder though. If it is a feeder you still need a grounding electrode at the second structure but you tie it to the EGC instead of the grounded conductor (neutral).
                It is what I would consider a feeder (feeding a multicircuit box in the barn). 4 wires underground (hot, hot, neutral, and ground all tied into the same at the house). I have the same understanding, that the pole barn needs its own grounding electrode tied into EGC which in this case is not bonded to neutral in the barn.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by wacnstac View Post
                  It is what I would consider a feeder (feeding a multicircuit box in the barn). 4 wires underground (hot, hot, neutral, and ground all tied into the same at the house). I have the same understanding, that the pole barn needs its own grounding electrode tied into EGC which in this case is not bonded to neutral in the barn.
                  That is correct.
                  I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Little Bill View Post
                    You DO need two ground rods (if that's what you are using for a GEC [grounding electrode conductor]).

                    Let's raise the ugly UFER head again ... new pole barn, maybe concrete floor on grade with steel, if so that must be the GEC connection.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by GeorgeB View Post
                      Let's raise the ugly UFER head again ... new pole barn, maybe concrete floor on grade with steel, if so that must be the GEC connection.
                      Floor, or only footings?
                      Master Electrician
                      Electrical Contractor
                      Richmond, VA

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Two questions:
                        Is the barn used for housing livestock ?
                        Are you actually wiring the barn in MI (Mineral-Insulated Cable) or did you mean MC ??
                        At my age, I'm accustomed to restaurants asking me to pay in advance, but now my bank has started sending me their calendar one month at a time.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by augie47 View Post
                          Two questions: Is the barn used for housing livestock ?
                          Are you actually wiring the barn in MI (Mineral-Insulated Cable) or did you mean MC ??
                          The State of MI, Michigan

                          MTW Ω

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by augie47 View Post
                            Two questions:
                            Is the barn used for housing livestock ?
                            Are you actually wiring the barn in MI (Mineral-Insulated Cable) or did you mean MC ??
                            MI as in Michigan and Michigan does not enforce NEC Art. 547 at all.
                            Cheers and Stay Safe,

                            Marky the Sparky

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by GeorgeB View Post
                              Let's raise the ugly UFER head again ... new pole barn, maybe concrete floor on grade with steel, if so that must be the GEC connection.
                              Only if the slab is also the footing or structural, and there is no vapor retarder under it (which there should be).
                              Ethan Brush - East West Electric. NY, WA. MA

                              "You can't generalize"

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