Grounding outlet and switch box

[mbrooke]

If a device is self grounding, do you still need to bond to the metallic box assuming the ground is terminated on the device?

 

[PaulMmn]

Just testing my knowledge---> I'd say yes, because removing the device will break the ground continuity, leaving the box ungrounded. <-- this answer may be wrong!!

 

[Little Bill]

If a device is self grounding, do you still need to bond to the metallic box assuming the ground is terminated on the device?

The box has to be bonded first, then a jumper to the device. In your case, the jumper isn't required since the device is self-grounded. You can also, in many cases, remove one of the washers on the mounting screws and not use the jumper.

 

[mbrooke]

I learned something new today. My thinking has always been along the line of Paul's, but code got me asking. Hope it doesn't change.

 

[hbiss]

I learned something new today. My thinking has always been along the line of Paul's, but code got me asking. Hope it doesn't change.

Remember that hopefully you will remove any plugs from the receptacle before removing it from the box. So at that point the ground is not doing anything.

-Hal

 

[mbrooke]

Remember that hopefully you will remove any plugs from the receptacle before removing it from the box. So at that point the ground is not doing anything.

-Hal

Oh, trust me, I haven't yet gotten to that point mentally :lol:

 

[PaulMmn]

Remember that hopefully you will remove any plugs from the receptacle before removing it from the box. So at that point the ground is not doing anything.

-Hal

Where else would you plug in the drop light to illuminate your work? :lol:

 

[LarryFine]

The rule is that it's the box that must be grounded; the device grounding is what's eliminated by the self-grounding feature. In other words, the feature is for grounding of the device, not the box.

 

[mbrooke]

I agree- but nothing forbids the other way around, correct?

 

[LarryFine]

I agree- but nothing forbids the other way around, correct?

Not.

 

[tom baker]

I agree- but nothing forbids the other way around, correct?

Perhaps a 2023 code change?

 

[mbrooke]

Not yet.

2023- probably.

 

[ramsy]

..You can also, in many cases, remove one of the washers on the mounting screws and not use the jumper.

Just because permits with inspections regularly pass re-modelers, rope pullers, and general contractors that fire any helper using device-grounding terminals, KO seals, or who pull drywall rocks from boxes, does not mean it will pass an insurance claim.

If device is not self bonding, violating the device listing or 110.3(B) gives freebees to the insurance industry, who find listing violations as cause for denying casualty claims.

 

[Little Bill]

.

Just because permits with inspections regularly pass re-modelers, rope pullers, and general contractors that fire any helper using device-grounding terminals, KO seals, or who pull drywall rocks from boxes, does not mean it will pass an insurance claim.

If device is not self bonding, violating the device listing or 110.3(B) gives freebees to the insurance industry, who find listing violations as cause for denying casualty claims.

What are you talking about?

(A) Surface-Mounted Box. Where the box is mounted on the
surface, direct metal-to-metal contact between the device yoke
and the box or a contact yoke or device that complies with
250.146(B) shall be permitted to ground the receptacle to the
box. At least one of the insulating washers shall be removed
from receptacles that do not have a contact yoke or device that
complies with 250.146(B) to ensure direct metal-to-metal
contact. This provision shall not apply to cover-mounted receptacles
unless the box and cover combination are listed as
providing satisfactory ground continuity between the box and
the receptacle. A listed exposed work cover shall be permitted
to be the grounding and bonding means when (1) the device is
attached to the cover with at least two fasteners that are permanent
(such as a rivet) or have a thread locking or screw or nut
locking means and (2) when the cover mounting holes are
located on a flat non-raised portion of the cover

 

[infinity]

As Bill pointed out there is one instance where you can remove a single insulating washer to bond the receptacle and that when using a surface FS style box like one of these:

 

[mbrooke]

What specifically requires an FS style box?

 

[infinity]

What specifically requires an FS style box?

Wet locations would be one scenario.

 

[kwired]

FS boxes are not the only limitation when it comes to "surface mounted".

I almost never use a bonding jumper to devices on other types of metallic surface mounted boxes, even cover mounted devices can be bonded through the cover if the cover is of a type allowed to do so. (typical 4x4 raised cover)

 

[infinity]

FS boxes are not the only limitation when it comes to "surface mounted".

I almost never use a bonding jumper to devices on other types of metallic surface mounted boxes, even cover mounted devices can be bonded through the cover if the cover is of a type allowed to do so. (typical 4x4 raised cover)

I agree that's true but that is not what Bill was referencing, he specifically mentioned removing the insulating washer from behind the 6-32 mounting screw for the purpose of metal to metal contact between the box and the yoke. That wouldn't really apply to cover mounted boxes.

Besides FS and variants of that type of box what other types of surface mounted boxes are you thinking about?

 

[kwired]

I agree that's true but that is not what Bill was referencing, he specifically mentioned removing the insulating washer from behind the 6-32 mounting screw for the purpose of metal to metal contact between the box and the yoke. That wouldn't really apply to cover mounted boxes.

Besides FS and variants of that type of box what other types of surface mounted boxes are you thinking about?

I guess I don't know exactly what FS is, but many refer to those like you pictured that are typically water resistant to at least some degree. Simple "handybox" or 4x4 with raised covers are also pretty commonly found surface mounted.

I think your post could be interpreted by some that only those weatherproof boxes like you posted a picture of are allowed to not utilize a bonding jumper to the device, may or may not be what you intended though.

Add: my comment wasn't addressing removing screw retaining non metallic washers as much as it was addressing the need to require a wire bonding jumper, or not.