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    new panel in existing no ground system

    I need to replace the existing panel and increase the size of it. This panel is fed by the disconnect that has no grounding (the building was built back in 60's). I'd like to know what I should do with it. The building is located in MD.

    Updates:

    I'm helping the church to increase the size and # of breakers of a panel. The old panel was 70A and it's replaced as 100A (as shown in the first picture). The panel is fed by an existing disconnect (2nd picture), which is 100A as well. The cable was good for 100A, but its still be replaced because it's deteriorated. While the electrician installing the new cable, they told me that the existing disconnect does not have EGC. Actually, there is no EGC for the entire system. The electrician said a grounding electrode need to be installed, but I wonder if it's necessary since it's existing condition.

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    Last edited by sssss; 11-19-19, 04:31 PM.

    #2
    Not sure what you mean by "no grounding". Please use a code term, or like Mike Holt once said, "What color is it and what does it do?"
    Moderator-Washington State
    Ancora Imparo

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      #3
      Where in VA are you?
      Master Electrician
      Electrical Contractor
      Richmond, VA

      Comment


        #4
        Are you replacing the disconnect? Does the disco have an OCPD in it? If so you need to make a GES and connect it to the neutral in the service disconnect. Could be as simple as two ground rods. You'll need a 4-wire or 5-wre feeder to the new panel.
        Rob

        Moderator

        All responses based on the 2017 NEC unless otherwise noted

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by LarryFine View Post
          Where in VA are you?
          Northern of VA

          Comment


            #6
            Nothing wrong with that panel to me. I'm also seeing a green EGC with the load conductors from that disconnect that looks to be bonded to neutral. No fuses in that disconnect so where is that disconnect fed from and why is it there? Where does that green go?

            -Hal

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              #7
              This appears to be the service disconnect with the fuses missing. Cannot really tell if the neutral is factory bonded to the enclosure but there does appear to be an EGC and a GEC.

              Rob

              Moderator

              All responses based on the 2017 NEC unless otherwise noted

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by infinity View Post
                This appears to be the service disconnect with the fuses missing.
                Yes, I see that now. So your only question is whether you need to install ground rods and bond to the water line because you are doing this upgrade, right? I would say that the inspector is going to want to see it done.

                -Hal

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                  #9
                  The block on the lower right is the neutral block, and should be connected to the enclosure with either a bolt or a wire jumper, like to the lug peeking out on the left.

                  That's also where the premises grounding system begins, and where the electrodes should be terminated.
                  Master Electrician
                  Electrical Contractor
                  Richmond, VA

                  Comment


                    #10
                    If it wasn't for the flex conduit, other metallic conduits could serve as the EGC.

                    Don't know the history of using flex for EGC, maybe it was compliant when it was new?
                    I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I originally didn't see the green in the new panel, only at the disconnect. So I was wondering the same thing about the flex and thinking whether a separate EGC was needed. But he did pull an EGC so all is good.

                      -Hal

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by sssss View Post
                        I need to replace the existing panel and increase the size of it. This panel is fed by the disconnect that has no grounding (the building was built back in 60's). I'd like to know what I should do with it. The building is located in MD.

                        Updates:

                        I'm helping the church to increase the size and # of breakers of a panel. The old panel was 70A and it's replaced as 100A (as shown in the first picture). The panel is fed by an existing disconnect (2nd picture), which is 100A as well. The cable was good for 100A, but its still be replaced because it's deteriorated. While the electrician installing the new cable, they told me that the existing disconnect does not have EGC. Actually, there is no EGC for the entire system. The electrician said a grounding electrode need to be installed, but I wonder if it's necessary since it's existing condition.
                        What are the LINE conductors of the existing disconnect in your second photo connected to? An electric meter? Additional electrical panel(s)?

                        I have a hunch you are saying "EGC" to mean Grounding Electrode System.

                        If the church has a metallic water pipe system from a well, or from a municipal water utility, the 1960s National Electrical Codes would have required the electrical service disconnecting means to be bonded with a Grounding Electrode Conductor.

                        Another Al in Minnesota

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