Bonding delta system

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Stormin

Member
I Have a circa 1940s industral system that is 1200 amp 480v delta from the utility. This system has multiple transformers that go from 480-208 delta-delta and also 480v delta-208/120v wye. There is no grounding of any kind on the panel boards, transformers or disconnects. The only equipment bonded together is the main panel board case to the cable tray. There was never a GEC installed to the water ground or to building steel. Also there is 480 or 208volts to conduits and equipment on 2 of the three phases throughout the plant. My question is, how to go about bonding all of this equipment with out creating any problems, such as ground loops, ect.
Any help would be great,Thanks
 

brian john

Senior Member
Location
Leesburg, VA
Is the 480 VAC service ungrounded?
Is the main service ungrounded?
Does management want it this way? Do you/they understand the benefits and disadvantages of the three options available. Ungrounded, resistance ground and solidly grounded.
Are there ground alarms on the existing distribution?

I would do is check the service voltage to ground to verify that no phase is accidentally grounded. Then check each SDS for the same.

I would then arrange an outage to megger each system. Phase to phase phase to ground and where available neutral to ground.

At the main service establish your ground, connecting all electrodes available to a common bus, Building steel Water pipe ect.

IF, you are to ground the delta service you should probalby contact your firms engineer of record for an approved drawings. On the 208/120 VAC systems ground as you would any SDS per the NEC.
 

Stormin

Member
The system comes from ulility ungrounded, strait 480v delta no neutral.The main service is ungrounded. There are no ground alarms installed on the system. (Do you/they understand the benefits and disadvantages of the three options available. Ungrounded, resistance ground and solidly grounded.)
The answer to this is no.
The phase to ground voltage is 480 on 2 phases and on 1 phase is 1 0r 2 volts.
Maintainace was hooking up new equipment, when this was discovered and we were asked to check and see what it was. I have never run across this before with 480 delta and no grounded or grounding at all. As far as engineers and drawings, there are none to my knowledge.

The only neutral in the plant is on the 2 wye transformers thats supply the 120v loads. I know that this needs to be bonded to the building and water sys, but wasnt sure what it would effect with the rest of the system.
 

brian john

Senior Member
Location
Leesburg, VA
The phase to ground voltage is 480 on 2 phases and on 1 phase is 1 0r 2 volts.

You have a corner grounded delta, this may be intentionally grounded or accidentally grounded (short to ground). THIS NEEDS TO BE DETERMINED.

You could check the main service for a connection to ground or possibly the supply transformer for the main service. There are some testing procedures you could utilize to locate the ground to phase connection, but IMO, I feel the best thing would be to arrange a shut down and check for the intentional connection or the short.

Another option would be to locate a contractor in your area that can assist with these endeavors. Which unless you have time to get up to speed may be te way to go
 

Stormin

Member
The system transformers are located in a fenced in vault. I will have to see if the plant or utility has acess to the transformers. I would love to know myself how to test and look for this type of system, seeing as i am a young and energetic electrician :). There have be no known problems in the plant to date, but maitainence was concerned do to the lack of equipment grounding. My experience to date have been with mostly Wye set ups. I made a call to the local utlity and was told that it was a strait delta and nothing was mentioned about a corner system so i will have to call back and see if it is possible. If this is the instance, If it is I would just need to bond all of the service quipment and all of the SDS in the plant, are there any concerns with the possibility of ground loops??

Thank you for the help
 

brian john

Senior Member
Location
Leesburg, VA
Ground loops are a result of more than one point of connection to the ground system on the grounded conductor. IE at the main service and downstream from the service ground bond connection.


The easiest way to know if you have a down stream ground from the main service (or any SDS) is;

1. You have to know if the system is suppose to be grounded, if it is not and you have a "0" reading on one phase to ground and 480 on the other 2-phases you have a downstream short, phase to ground.

2. If you are not sure about downstream you can use a LEM/flexible CT and encompass all three phases in a Delta, with a Wye system you could encompass all phase and the neutral or just the phases. The readings with the first two test should be "0" or very *low, With the third method the readings should be close to the neutral readings. It would be necessary to do this at various points in the distribution system to attempt to locate the short.

3. With a scheduled power outage you could isolate all the loads and megger each conductor to *2ground. I fell this is the preferred method as #2 could miss a spot if the short is at a branch circuit, unless you test all branch circuits.

* A certain amount of leakage current is normal, in a system 60+ years old I would expect a lot of leakage current.

*2 You say you do not have a ground but even ungrounded services have a "ground" to short too. Building steel, conduit, water pipes ECT. In an ungrounded system it is often said the first short is free, the second short trips the OCP.

In Wye systems we check better than 90% (rough guess) have downstream grounds on the grounded conductor/neutral. If you accidentally ground a phase conductor you will trip the OCP, but a downstream grounded neutral goes unnoticed till someone does some testing. Same thing goes for a ungrounded Delta system.

Some advantages of a ungrounded system is as noted above, the first short is free, the site can continue to function till such time as a schedule shut down can be arranged.

If this system is suppose to be ungrounded at a minimum ground alarms should be installed.

Lastly a system this old should have electrical preventative maintenance performed, and IMO if management was wise it this equipment should be replaced on budgeted scheduled arragement.
 

brian john

Senior Member
Location
Leesburg, VA
Ground loops are a result of more than one point of connection to the ground system on the grounded conductor. IE at the main service and downstream from the service ground bond connection. Ground loops could exist now if two SDS are tied at some point with downstream grounds shorts (lot of if's). If you do not clear any (POSSIBLE) downstream connections you will have ground loops.


The easiest way to know if you have a down stream ground from the main service (or any SDS) is:

1. You have to know if the system is suppose to be grounded, if it is not and you have a "0" reading on one phase to ground and 480 on the other 2-phases you have a downstream short, phase to ground.

2. If you are not sure about downstream you can use a LEM/flexible CT and encompass all three phases in a Delta, with a Wye system you could encompass all phase and the neutral or just the phases. The readings with the first two test should be "0" or very *low, With the third method the readings should be close to the neutral readings. It would be necessary to do this at various points in the distribution system to attempt to locate the short.

EDITED On second thought this would only work if you had more that on ground on the distribution system, what would help would work, with a good multimeter, measure the voltage on the "0" to ground phase (grounded conductor) starting at the service, then measure and record voltage on the grounded phase at various locations in the distribution, if the readings (millivolts to 2-4 volts) raise as you get further from the service the system is grounded at the service. If the voltage readings are lower on a particular feeder the ground is on that feeder.
3. With a scheduled power outage you could isolate all the loads and megger each conductor to *2ground. I fell this is the preferred method as #2 could miss a spot if the short is at a branch circuit, unless you test all branch circuits.

* A certain amount of leakage current is normal, in a system 60+ years old I would expect a lot of leakage current.

*2 You say you do not have a ground but even ungrounded services have a "ground" to short too. Building steel, conduit, water pipes ECT. In an ungrounded system it is often said the first short is free, the second short trips the OCP.

In Wye systems we check better than 90% (rough guess) have downstream grounds on the grounded conductor/neutral. If you accidentally ground a phase conductor you will trip the OCP, but a downstream grounded neutral goes unnoticed till someone does some testing. Same thing goes for a ungrounded Delta system.

Some advantages of a ungrounded system is as noted above, the first short is free, the site can continue to function till such time as a schedule shut down can be arranged.

If this system is suppose to be ungrounded at a minimum ground alarms should be installed.

Lastly a system this old should have electrical preventative maintenance performed, and IMO if management was wise it this equipment should be replaced on budgeted scheduled arragement.
 
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Stormin

Member
Ok Thank you for the great info. Our company has never gotten into A situation like this So I will have to find a company whom I could hire to look further into this with me, Thus wanting to learn and not loose the account. You are right, im sure somthing is grounded somewhere, but i could not find anything obvious,other than the lack of building steel and water ground, without shuting down. The 1200 amp switch board is older Ite stuff maybee not 60 years but close. I wanted to look a little further into this do to that fact that bonding all the equipment may not resolve the issue. I have heard about the 1st short being free and didnt not want to be part of the sencond.
Again-thanks
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Another way to determine that you indeed have a corner-grounded Delta (intentionally) is that the phase with 1-2v on it should be white, and there should be no fuses on that phase. In other words, it should be basically treated like a neutral.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Larry,
Another way to determine that you indeed have a corner-grounded Delta (intentionally) is that the phase with 1-2v on it should be white, and there should be no fuses on that phase. In other words, it should be basically treated like a neutral.
While the code requires the grounded conductor of this system to be white, I have never seen that in the field. Most of the time I have found the "dummy" fuses on the grounded phase, but not always. In many cases the systems used breakers, so you lose that key indicator.
Don
 

Stormin

Member
I know there wasnt any white tape markings on any phases indicating 1 phase was to ground. We just got slammed up here in maine with a storm. The utlity is out strait. I will have to wait to get into the vault and see if there any markings at all in the vault and go from there.
Thank you very much
 

brian john

Senior Member
Location
Leesburg, VA
While Markings and a lack of a fuse in one phase can be a good indicator. Do not let this influence your decision about the type of system you may have.
 

benaround

Senior Member
Location
Arizona
Stormin,

Here is something else you can try. When the plant is shut down (sat.) or

after hours, with your wiggys test from A phase to a conduit, do you have

voltage? Then test from B phase to a conduit, do you have voltage? Then

the same for C phase. The phase that doesn't read voltage to the conduit

has a short in it. That's why the first short is free, make sense so far? Say

C phase is shorted, then from A phase or B phase you get voltage to the

conduit because C phase is shorted to it!!! Now to clear the short, first

you have to find it. With your wiggys on the conduit and getting voltage

start shutting things off one at a time, if only one item is shorted sooner

or later the voltage will go away , and that will be the item or panel

where the short is, find it fix it, when all the shorts are cleared (fixed)

you will no longer have voltage from a conduit to any phase.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Of course, Frank's explanation assumes you don't have an intentionally-corner-grounded system. Corner-grounded Deltas are more common that un-grounded Delta's are, especially in the "old days."

I am curious as to whether the 208v systems are grounded, especially the 208/120v Y.
 
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