Unfair prevailing wages

[qcroanoke]

I wouldn't insulate pipe for even $400 more a week. I'd go crazy doing the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

Clock out and go home..

400.00 x 52= $20,800.00
Hand me the insulation.

 

[infinity]

No disrespect,,,, But I wouldn't.
That's ludicris.
You would work for $200.00 a week less? For what?
To say you can wire a 3 way? And a pipe insulator can't?

To each his, IMO that's one of the worst trades in the construction business.

 

[480sparky]

400.00 x 52= $20,800.00
Hand me the insulation.

Knock yourself out.

 

[zbang]

this organization doesn't have an electrical contractor license, so they use mine and my insurance, bond and others.

Are you charging them for it? It's worth something over just the wage they're paying.

 

[gadfly56]

Prevailing wage is based on surveys sent out by the government asking what they are paying their workers. If only low scale companys reply, and the ones paying more money out, don't reply, then that would make the prevaling wage go down.

This is not quite true. Prevailing wages are the wages that "prevail" in a given geographic. The government usually bases this on the local union rates. Why? Because the union is organized and can make a good case that it represents the majority of the work for that classification being performed in that locale. Considering for the moment that on average only some 15-25% of American workers belong to a union, this is likely to be, well, a bit of a stretch. Now if local contractors get together and through a trade group can show that they've got, say, 5,000 men working vs. say, 500 for the union, and they volunteer their hourly pay scales, then they can make a case that the contractor's average wage rate should be the prevailing wage. I am not aware of any case where that has happened, but it's a big country.

 

[Fulthrotl]

This is not quite true. Prevailing wages are the wages that "prevail" in a given geographic. The government usually bases this on the local union rates. Why? Because the union is organized and can make a good case that it represents the majority of the work for that classification being performed in that locale. Considering for the moment that on average only some 15-25% of American workers belong to a union, this is likely to be, well, a bit of a stretch. Now if local contractors get together and through a trade group can show that they've got, say, 5,000 men working vs. say, 500 for the union, and they volunteer their hourly pay scales, then they can make a case that the contractor's average wage rate should be the prevailing wage. I am not aware of any case where that has happened, but it's a big country.

well, here we are, at an ugly point. for an awful lot of years, there was a symbiotic, dysfunctional
relationship between "organized" and "disorganized" labor, or whatever terms you wish to use.

and organized labors wage was always used as the prevailing wage. disorganized labor, for want
of a better phrase, ran a percentage under that, and was always in an undercutting position, but
the organized, or prevailing wage set the stage for everyone.

the organized wage carried the disorganized wage upward with it.

as organized labor lost its primacy in the marketplace, and disorganized labor became the dominant
force, the disorganized labor rate began to hold down the organized rate, and without an organized
rate to undercut, both began to spiral in a holding pattern, while the cost of living slowly ate everyone's
lunch.

when i started this work, my first pay scale was $12.06, in 1977. four years later, in 1981, it was $28.50.
it made it to $31 and change in 1983, and remained stalled there for 25 years. slowly creeping up towards
$40 an hour. $9 an hour in 32 years, versus $16 an hour increase in four years.

so the pivot point was about 1983 in this part of the country.

and now what you now have is organized labor that has been driven from that venue, and is now undercutting
disorganized labor, on a free agent basis, with excellent craft skills, and quickly learned business skills,
while disorganized labor, which is now making unhappy snarky sounds, as they are the new prevailing wage, and
are being hoist on their own petard. thirty years of having their nemesis assure them of a good bidding environment
is now gone like the morning mist.

what goes around, comes around, and just arrived. and it's not done yet.

this is neither a screed for organized or disorganized labor, just as objective an analysis as
i can make based on my observations.

but it does explain the race to the bottom for sparkies reasonably well.

and the new bottom feeder, in this section of the country, is undocumented workers, undercutting everyone.
no license, no insurance, ESL, and they are now setting rates.

can lights for $40 each? saddle up, sweet peas, we are all in this together, like it or not. Como No?

 

[Smart $]

well, here we are, at an ugly point. for an awful lot of years, there was a symbiotic, dysfunctional
relationship between "organized" and "disorganized" labor, or whatever terms you wish to use.

and organized labors wage was always used as the prevailing wage. disorganized labor, for want
of a better phrase, ran a percentage under that, and was always in an undercutting position, but
the organized, or prevailing wage set the stage for everyone.

the organized wage carried the disorganized wage upward with it.

as organized labor lost its primacy in the marketplace, and disorganized labor became the dominant
force, the disorganized labor rate began to hold down the organized rate, and without an organized
rate to undercut, both began to spiral in a holding pattern, while the cost of living slowly ate everyone's
lunch.

when i started this work, my first pay scale was $12.06, in 1977. four years later, in 1981, it was $28.50.
it made it to $31 and change in 1983, and remained stalled there for 25 years. slowly creeping up towards
$40 an hour. $9 an hour in 32 years, versus $16 an hour increase in four years.

so the pivot point was about 1983 in this part of the country.

and now what you now have is organized labor that has been driven from that venue, and is now undercutting
disorganized labor, on a free agent basis, with excellent craft skills, and quickly learned business skills,
while disorganized labor, which is now making unhappy snarky sounds, as they are the new prevailing wage, and
are being hoist on their own petard. thirty years of having their nemesis assure them of a good bidding environment
is now gone like the morning mist.

what goes around, comes around, and just arrived. and it's not done yet.

this is neither a screed for organized or disorganized labor, just as objective an analysis as
i can make based on my observations.

but it does explain the race to the bottom for sparkies reasonably well.

and the new bottom feeder, in this section of the country, is undocumented workers, undercutting everyone.
no license, no insurance, ESL, and they are now setting rates.

can lights for $40 each? saddle up, sweet peas, we are all in this together, like it or not. Como No?

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[electric_cal]

well, here we are, at an ugly point. for an awful lot of years, there was a symbiotic, dysfunctional
relationship between "organized" and "disorganized" labor, or whatever terms you wish to use.

and organized labors wage was always used as the prevailing wage. disorganized labor, for want
of a better phrase, ran a percentage under that, and was always in an undercutting position, but
the organized, or prevailing wage set the stage for everyone.

the organized wage carried the disorganized wage upward with it.

as organized labor lost its primacy in the marketplace, and disorganized labor became the dominant
force, the disorganized labor rate began to hold down the organized rate, and without an organized
rate to undercut, both began to spiral in a holding pattern, while the cost of living slowly ate everyone's
lunch.

when i started this work, my first pay scale was $12.06, in 1977. four years later, in 1981, it was $28.50.
it made it to $31 and change in 1983, and remained stalled there for 25 years. slowly creeping up towards
$40 an hour. $9 an hour in 32 years, versus $16 an hour increase in four years.

so the pivot point was about 1983 in this part of the country.

and now what you now have is organized labor that has been driven from that venue, and is now undercutting
disorganized labor, on a free agent basis, with excellent craft skills, and quickly learned business skills,
while disorganized labor, which is now making unhappy snarky sounds, as they are the new prevailing wage, and
are being hoist on their own petard. thirty years of having their nemesis assure them of a good bidding environment
is now gone like the morning mist.

what goes around, comes around, and just arrived. and it's not done yet.

this is neither a screed for organized or disorganized labor, just as objective an analysis as
i can make based on my observations.

but it does explain the race to the bottom for sparkies reasonably well.

and the new bottom feeder, in this section of the country, is undocumented workers, undercutting everyone.
no license, no insurance, ESL, and they are now setting rates.

can lights for $40 each? saddle up, sweet peas, we are all in this together, like it or not. Como No?

I agree with everything you have said:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: Unfortunately, I believe it is going to get a lot worse! As you say, the race to the bottom has begun:thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown:

 

[gadfly56]

well, here we are, at an ugly point. for an awful lot of years, there was a symbiotic, dysfunctional
relationship between "organized" and "disorganized" labor, or whatever terms you wish to use.

and organized labors wage was always used as the prevailing wage. disorganized labor, for want
of a better phrase, ran a percentage under that, and was always in an undercutting position, but
the organized, or prevailing wage set the stage for everyone.

the organized wage carried the disorganized wage upward with it.

as organized labor lost its primacy in the marketplace, and disorganized labor became the dominant
force, the disorganized labor rate began to hold down the organized rate, and without an organized
rate to undercut, both began to spiral in a holding pattern, while the cost of living slowly ate everyone's
lunch.

when i started this work, my first pay scale was $12.06, in 1977. four years later, in 1981, it was $28.50.
it made it to $31 and change in 1983, and remained stalled there for 25 years. slowly creeping up towards
$40 an hour. $9 an hour in 32 years, versus $16 an hour increase in four years.

so the pivot point was about 1983 in this part of the country.

and now what you now have is organized labor that has been driven from that venue, and is now undercutting
disorganized labor, on a free agent basis, with excellent craft skills, and quickly learned business skills,
while disorganized labor, which is now making unhappy snarky sounds, as they are the new prevailing wage, and
are being hoist on their own petard. thirty years of having their nemesis assure them of a good bidding environment
is now gone like the morning mist.

what goes around, comes around, and just arrived. and it's not done yet.

this is neither a screed for organized or disorganized labor, just as objective an analysis as
i can make based on my observations.

but it does explain the race to the bottom for sparkies reasonably well.

and the new bottom feeder, in this section of the country, is undocumented workers, undercutting everyone.
no license, no insurance, ESL, and they are now setting rates.

can lights for $40 each? saddle up, sweet peas, we are all in this together, like it or not. Como No?

Well, I certainly wasn't looking to wind up anyone here, but I can understand your frustration. However, I think your ire is somewhat misplaced, unless the majority of your work is state/federal. I'm not aware of any wage determination that has actually used non-union rates to set the standard for any geographical area, but as I said earlier, it's a big country and I'm open to correction.

The price wage pressure you've been experiencing seems to be a lot of people employing a "beggar thy neighbor" approach to bidding. Trunk slammers, illegals, whatever, are definitely putting the screws on licensed operators. I've heard on this forum how very uninterested jurisdictions seem to be in enforcing licensing laws. If true, the only solution I can see is for trade groups to make as big a stink as they can with lawmakers, media, and what have you to make it happen.

 

[Fulthrotl]

Well, I certainly wasn't looking to wind up anyone here, but I can understand your frustration. However, I think your ire is somewhat misplaced, unless the majority of your work is state/federal. I'm not aware of any wage determination that has actually used non-union rates to set the standard for any geographical area, but as I said earlier, it's a big country and I'm open to correction.

i'm not ire'd, i just come this way...

and there is no official determination anywhere to the best of my knowledge,
that is using disorganized labor as prevailing wage.

nobody, organized or otherwise, want's PW dropped.

it's simpler for agencies to simply look at what negotiated packages are
in place in a geographic area, and use that instead of farming the data of
what is really going on.

now ire is what happens when a disorganized contractor has to work at
UCLA alongside organized folks, and as it's a PW job, the disorganized
folks get the full PW on the check, and the organized folks have to pay
dues and the benefit package out of their portion, and the disorganized
folks were making $12 more ON THE CHECK per hour than their organized peers.

and to be pissy about it, they took to leaving their pay stubs laying around
the jobsite on payday.

now, THAT was pissy.

 

[gadfly56]

i'm not ire'd, i just come this way...

and there is no official determination anywhere to the best of my knowledge,
that is using disorganized labor as prevailing wage.

nobody, organized or otherwise, want's PW dropped.

it's simpler for agencies to simply look at what negotiated packages are
in place in a geographic area, and use that instead of farming the data of
what is really going on.

now ire is what happens when a disorganized contractor has to work at
UCLA alongside organized folks, and as it's a PW job, the disorganized
folks get the full PW on the check, and the organized folks have to pay
dues and the benefit package out of their portion, and the disorganized
folks were making $12 more ON THE CHECK per hour than their organized peers.

and to be pissy about it, they took to leaving their pay stubs laying around
the jobsite on payday.

now, THAT was pissy.

Well that's just rude. "Oh, lookee here, someone went and keyed your truck. Plum shame, that."

 

[liquidtite]

Pw

Pw

At least you and your men were being paid the correct pw. I worked for a crooked ec for a year who had contracts for all fed work in NYC . The pw is around 50 plus the Frindge benefits is around 80$ ph .

its crazy the arrogance my ex boss had bc I was working in FBI buildings and dol headquarters , and instead of being paid the 80$ ph as law says since I was never in fed approved apprentice program , I wAs being paid around 20 $ ph.And he miss classified me as layborar .

And to confuse you on your pay he would bump up your hours on paystub , so on a 40 hr week he would say I worked 85 and put down diff wage , really bogous stuff .

when I called dol it took me months befor an actuall investigation started bc the woman I was talking to was a compleat idiot .


Now the investigation is ongoing but when ever I call I get very little information from my investigator , she is very grey , it's been goin on now for over a year .

Last she told me was she combining addition contracts together so it's going to take some time
she also told me that the contracts I was on were the contracts are closed will be difficult to get money for witch I think is bs .

does any ones now how long these things take and if I can get paid for contracts that are currently closed .

 

[bradleyelectric]

Yes he gets paid two bucks more per hour but what does he really learn? Nothing.

It seems he learned he can make $4000. a year more insulating and doing electric on the weekends if he wanted to.

 

[__dan]

At least you and your men were being paid the correct pw. I worked for a crooked ec for a year who had contracts for all fed work in NYC . The pw is around 50 plus the Frindge benefits is around 80$ ph .

its crazy the arrogance my ex boss had bc I was working in FBI buildings and dol headquarters , and instead of being paid the 80$ ph as law says since I was never in fed approved apprentice program , I wAs being paid around 20 $ ph.And he miss classified me as layborar .

And to confuse you on your pay he would bump up your hours on paystub , so on a 40 hr week he would say I worked 85 and put down diff wage , really bogous stuff .

when I called dol it took me months befor an actuall investigation started bc the woman I was talking to was a compleat idiot .


Now the investigation is ongoing but when ever I call I get very little information from my investigator , she is very grey , it's been goin on now for over a year .

Last she told me was she combining addition contracts together so it's going to take some time
she also told me that the contracts I was on were the contracts are closed will be difficult to get money for witch I think is bs .

does any ones now how long these things take and if I can get paid for contracts that are currently closed .

I will take a guess at this. My guess would be that the time period for the statute of limitations would be measured from the time you filed the claim. So as long as you filed on time, how old it gets matters less. You do want to keep your own records of any correspondence and periodically ask for updates of your docket number to see where it's at.

If the employer studied at the same school as everyone else they will deny wrongdoing to the end and just try to run the clock out hoping you will get hit by a bus before your case gets to the commissioner's decision time. Crooks seem to be not aware of anything wrong with lying, to the commissioner or anyone, but it does help to make sure they get the practice they need.

Any finding of wrongdoing by the DOL commissioner and in order to settle your case they will have to most likely pay. Be sure to claim double damages as allowed by law for discriminatory or willful acts per whatever the law provides. Any finding of wrongdoing and the employer would be open to additional charges like failure to pay wages, which could carry jail time.

How long it takes could be any number. The DOL administrative process should be able to give you some typical estimate and where your case stands relative.

You are not saving any money by trying to lawyer it yourself, probably risking loss of the whole case. Shop around for a lawyer like you would shop for a car, beat on them a little and see who is left with something to sell. It's a war of attrition. Just make sure they pay and do not profit from their crime, get some practice dropping the dime on them, then move on.

 

[Strathead]

i'm not ire'd, i just come this way...

and there is no official determination anywhere to the best of my knowledge,
that is using disorganized labor as prevailing wage.

nobody, organized or otherwise, want's PW dropped.

it's simpler for agencies to simply look at what negotiated packages are
in place in a geographic area, and use that instead of farming the data of
what is really going on.

now ire is what happens when a disorganized contractor has to work at
UCLA alongside organized folks, and as it's a PW job, the disorganized
folks get the full PW on the check, and the organized folks have to pay
dues and the benefit package out of their portion, and the disorganized
folks were making $12 more ON THE CHECK per hour than their organized peers.

and to be pissy about it, they took to leaving their pay stubs laying around
the jobsite on payday.

now, THAT was pissy.

That is what happens when you let the government get involved, period. As I think it was Smart$ said, "life isn't fair." If you don't like non-union wages, work your butt off kiss some a$$ and get in to the union. If you don't like the scabs making more than you become one. Don't think your employer pays you enough put out your own shingle. I don't get paid nearly enough, but I am the one who allows that to happen, no one else. I have always found that the ones who deserve it least are the ones who complain the most about how unfair it is.
(I am in no way implying that is anyone here, and in fact think it unlikely as we generally wouldn't even be here if we weren't top tier.)

 

[fww56]

See the accompanying photo. As I informed before in another post, I dis-retired and started working for an organization that provides repairs for low/nothing income senior. I am the only one of 11 repair guys that possess residential electrical license, residential administrator certification and residential plumbing license and it is my duty to provide training cards to others (2 for plumbing and 2 for electrical)

But, here is the problem, I have to maintain those licenses, including Electrical contractor license and General contracting license to support the plumbing license as well and insurance and bond and continuing education expenses and provide training.

So, all the 11 repair guys are handymen, no licenses at all, but they make, as example: lying a piece of linoleum they make $42.15 per hour or patching a roof $44.71 per hour without license, minor electrical, as replacing a fixture, switch., at $30.82 per hour.

So, something seems wrong here, how the electrical trade (in this case residential) with all the liability and the workmanship involved, requiring licenses, bonds, insurance, etc., get the least wages? (commercial gets something about prevailing wages of $68.00), but I cannot do their roofs and linoleum, even having more than 40 years of experience on those fields as well, because I need the time for the electrical and plumbing as no-one are able to do the electrical and the plumbing professionally, as an example are the fires occasioned at the MHs I am working now. When I am sitting at the weekly meetings I feel as a fool when I see those handymen making $93,000.00 per year in patching roofs, linoleum, etc., but $64,000.00 per year in doing the electrical with all the mentioned expenses and responsibilities. I am quitting soon and go back as working again by myself (never worked for anyone before) I really are enjoying working for those low income senior, but I don't like making the fool. Any input?

The bigger problem I see at the root of this is not so much the disparity in the prevailing wages, I see a problem in what you're bringing to the table vs. what you're being compensated for. The prevailing wage (in theory) is in place to insure that the tradesman are paid a fair and equitable wage and was never intended to include the administration of such. Your electrical contractor license, general contracting license, plumbing license as well and insurance and bond and continuing education expenses and providing training are entirely separate issues. I see these items as separately negotiated with each having a real value.

Also keep in mind that the prevailing wage is the minimum required to be paid and there is nothing forbidding you from negotiating a higher rate.

I also do a lot of work for agencies that target low income and blighted neighborhoods but my situation is a bit different as I don't work for these agencies by the hour. Every project is bid bid and billed separately. I maintain a spreadsheet for bidding with values for each task that I adjust at least twice a year. I track my work and this year I've seen an increase in job volume but a decrease of the average job price which was affecting my weekly income. Because of this I've implemented a small job surcharge added to the quote to bring my totals up to where I need them.

This is what works for me. If I was in your situation I would no way be providing those various contractors licenses, bonds and training to their employees for the same price as what a journeyman electrician would make for installing receptacles.