Journeyman Applicant Quiz

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I^2R

Member
Location
NH
I'm getting sick of supposedly knowledgeable, experienced journeyman / masters who don't quite live up to their promises (or their pay). I'm working on a (closed book) quiz to hand out during the application process to see what they know. Not looking to make it too hard, but I'm looking for questions that you would know if you work in the field every day (commercial and industrial only).
Here is what I've come up with so far, too hard, too easy? Suggestions for more questions would be appreciated.
For what it's worth, the applicants i'm handing this to are getting more wrong than right.

1. How many #12 THHN current carrying conductors can you install in a 1” conduit and still provide overcurrent protection with a 20-ampere breaker?
2. What is the smallest AWG size grounding conductor that you can pull using black insulation and re-code green with colored tape?
3. When bending a 30-degree, 6” offset in a 1” EMT conduit, how far apart would you make your layout marks?
4. Consider the drawing below, assume #2AWG conductors. If you are going to use a square pull box (i.e, 10x10, 12x12, etc.), what is the minimum size you could use?
(drawing didn't copy, but it's a square JB, 3" conduits, straight pull left to right, angle pull from left to bottom)
5. What is the required working space depth for a 120/208V electrical panel to a concrete wall?
6. What is the required working space depth for a 277/480V electrical panel to a concrete wall?
7. How many total degrees of bend are allowed in a 1-1/2” conduit run between pull points?

I feel that this is simple stuff that, if done wrong, costs a lot of time and money to rectify when the inspector fails the install.
 
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active1

Senior Member
Location
Las Vegas
Sorry but I think the quiz is too much.
Doesn't surprise me many are not doing so well.
For a few reasons.
Many that work in the field don't have the best reading comprehension.
Seems like all the questions I need to read several times. They have unneeded details to cloud the question.


"3. When bending a 30-degree, 6” offset in a 1” EMT conduit, how far apart would you make your layout marks?"
VS
What is the bend multiplier for 30 degrees?


"5. What is the required working space depth for a 120/208V electrical panel to a concrete wall?"
VS
Minimum working space for 208v electrical panel?


Done many interviews in my past. Don't like questions that are poorly written, have multiple answers, mistakes, no correct choice or think it has an incorrect answer.

2. What is the smallest AWG size grounding conductor that you can pull using black insulation and re-code green with colored tape?
Think you want to say equipment grounding, grounding electrode conductor, something else, or white tape.

I've hired a lot of guys in the past. I keep the test simpler. But I was looking for installers journeyman more than foreman.
IMO many of those questions on a job would be on the foreman then to pass to the journeyman.
I found a few things. Some people can't do written. They can't answer or answer even close. I sit down with them to look at their test, about ready to quickly push them out the door thinking they are fake because they did so poorly on the written. But I tried something. I verbally asked them the questions, and almost every time they said the answer right away. Turned out to be so great workers. They never laid out a project or were given plans and left alone.

Something else is if a person is out of a certain side of the trade some of the knowledge fades. It comes back in a short amount of time. But unemployed people are not always at the peak of their game.

Instead of seeking out people that pass your test, how about a simple training for new hires?
If it costs a lot of time and money if done wrong, how are you ensuring it is done right.
You could create a quick reference sheet that covers the areas on your test.
Maybe 1 page double sided. Hand it to the new hires. Have an experienced person review the sheet with the new hire, maybe 5-10 minutes.
Post it in the gang box, laminate it, or keep handing it out to your staff.
Tell em they need to have that in their tool box, at least until they have it memorized.
At company meetings, remind the people to use, ask if they have questions, or more to add to the sheet.
That's training the workforce.
 
I

I^2R

Member
Location
NH
Perhaps a little more context is in order.
We are a small commercial-industrial contractor (15-20 man shop). While some of our larger projects have a few crews with a foreman almost all of our crew is in two man journeyman/apprentice teams in a van. They are typically on there own, so the journeyman is the "foreman". They would be expected to do basic installs with minimal guidance. The problem is that they all say they can, but most can't.

I'm not talking about figuring out a service entrance, load calculations, transformer sizing, fault current selection, etc. I'm talking about sending someone to go run some 20a branch circuits for outlets and they stuff a dozen #12s in a 1/2" conduit with 500 degrees of bend.

We do train our apprentices, and after four years they could all size a pull box.
Our state "dumbed down" the journeyman test a few years back and since then it seems they give out a licence to anyone who has a discernible heartbeat. Now, journeyman applicants show up demanding top of scale (and signing bonuses) and they cant properly size a basic branch circuit conduit.

Also, there is no such thing as an unemployed electrician around here. Unless they just moved into the area, if they are unemployed something is seriously wrong (lazy, bad attitude, substance abuse, etc.). Everyone is getting huge money, which is fine, but I expect you to be able to do your job.
 
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jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
Seems mostly appropriate to me, although I don't know all the answers by heart... :D

Comments:
#1) I don't think it's necessary to make it a trick question. I'd suggest replacing 1" with 'single'. They either know the concept or not, no need to confuse the guys that know it.
#5) Seems perhaps more appropriate to an open book test.

re: #2) I can never remember if 6awg is the smallest size that you can re-color with tape or the largest size that you can't. :lol:
 
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active1

Senior Member
Location
Las Vegas
A great service electrician is harder to get.
Part of the problem is on a construction job many times all the details are on the plans.
Then it goes down the food chain until many times the journeyman just gets verbal instructions.
They can look at the plans or ask their supervisor for any questions.

A service tech is a whole different animal.
For that I would make it clear your looking for a service electrician in employment ads, if not already.
For those positions the 1st thing I worry about is getting a person that wont cause problems with the customer.
Putting effort into personal appearance, positive attitude, friendly, motivated, able to communicate clearly, reliable, etc.
I would say safety would be #2. You can add or change J-boxes. But if one of your workers drops something on a guest (your customers customer) it's game over.
Don't get me wrong, they need to be skilled also.

As far as overloading the conduits, not enough J-boxes, etc it could also be the installer is just being lazy and doesn't care. Some service guys have it in their head to make something work by any means possible as easy or quick as possible.

The real problem is your market is doing so well that quality service people are hard to get.
It's not that good here in Vegas yet.

I used to get worked up about the labor taking too long, not knowing some things, making dumb layout mistakes, etc.
Really found it better to just accept what you have and adapt to work with it. Including charging more to corer the extra time.
In your case if you can't get the skilled labor you need perhaps you can get 1 good supervisor to layout the journeyman, check on, and inspect the finished job.

To take things to the extreme there were smaller EC's said to have closed in Vegas years back because construction was booming. They said they couldn't get the labor to do the work.

Seen a few times an electrician would take a code book with them on an interview. I figured if they brought it they can use it for the quiz. I seen it as a positive as at least they are motivated. Some that were hired would carry a book on their cart or truck every day. But some of the questions really are not in the book. Like what conductor colors would you use for a 5 wire 277/480v system?
 
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jeremysterling

Senior Member
Location
Austin, TX
I agree with most of what has been posted in response to the OP. I would fear that you may shame a great worker into going somewhere else.

When I took my pre-employment skills test eleven years ago, I had been off my tools for two years. I nailed the math and most of the code stuff, but I guessed at some of the stuff that is pretty close to what your test is.

I'll never forget that day. The owner sat down with me and the test, shook his head and said, "You sure burned that motor up." He then explained how the T-leads in the motor junction box relate to the windings and the applied voltage.

Of course I'd forgotten this from USNavy Electrician School that I'd been educated at twenty years prior!

He then reviewed the rest of the test with me and offered me a job.
 
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