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    #31
    Originally posted by 480sparky View Post
    Years ago, Joe Sixpack got a job as a helper for Fly-By-Night Electric. He started out working with a journeyman wiring houses for Cut Corners Construction. Joe turned out to be a pretty good electrician, learning fast and working hard. As the years went by, Joe got pretty good at wiring houses. Soon, he was running the jobs himself, and had his own helper.

    Then recently, Joe got to thinking. "Fly-By-Night charges Cut Corners ten grand to wire a house. I know I get paid about $1500, and my helper gets $1000. I know the material costs around $2500.......... so that means the boss is making five thousand just sitting at the office endorsing checks!"

    So Joe decides to strike out on his own. "Man, this'll be great! I'll charge just $7000 to wire the houses, and with only $2500 in material, I'll pocket $4500 for each house I do....... Jeez, that's more than three times what I was making when I was working for 'the man'!"

    So Joe hangs out his shingle. He doesn't have any health insurance, thinking he'll get that later when things really get started. Suddenly, he realizes he needs to be licensed. So he takes the test, and spends more money for the test and license. He also doesn't understand that driving his own truck costs money, both in gas, repairs, insurance, etc.

    All fired up, he gets his first job for Cut Corners. Right from the start, Cut Corners wants a current liability insurance certificate. So Joe forks out $3000 for insurance. A few weeks later, he gets a letter from the state saying he's not a registered contractor. So another $600 is spent. Oh, yea, the city says they need $1250 for a permit.

    A few days into the first job, Cut Corners says they need temporary power. Joe didn't figure the cost of a temp pole into the job, but he builds one and gets it hooked up. Joe finds out he needs more than a 3/8" drill and 4-foot stepladder. So he goes out and buys more cords and a couple ladders. Every time Joe needs material or another tool, he'd drive down to Home Depot and whip out the plastic. Pretty soon, he realizes he's a couple days behind schedule. Why? He's working alone and doesn't have his old helper with him.

    So Joe starts working 12-hours days, and a couple Saturdays as well. He skips his daughter's dance recital, and misses his son's Little League game. He comes home dirty, tired and grouchy, which cause his family to stay away from him.

    By the time the house is roughed in, his credit card is maxed out and Joe needs to borrow money from his parents. "Just until I get this job done, then I'll be rolling in dough" he tells them. He borrows even more money just to buy the material he needs to trim the house. By this time, he has alienated his family and taken his credit rating down below 400.

    And the sad truth is, by the time job is done, he's been paid only $7000 and has spent $14000 just to 'be in business'. So he tells Cut Corners the next job will be $8500, thinking he can 'make it up' on the future work. But even that 'extra' $1500 'from the next job' won't cover his $7000 shortfall. Besides, Cut Corners won't hire him again because Joe caused them to get behind on their schedule. And to add insult to injury, they found someone else to do the job for less.

    Dejected, Joe goes home, only to find a letter from the IRS saying they want $3250 for the income tax Joe owes from that job. The state also wants $675 for sales tax. All the 'profit' Joe thought he was going to make went to pay his bills, leaving nothing to pay his parents back with.



    And who did Cut Corners hire to wire their next house? Joe's old helper from Fly-By-Night!


    sad, but true.

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      #32
      My career went well, but unfortunately took the 1st 25 years to learn what others have posted here. Made the last 15 years easier tho

      I was good at electrical work, which in no way prepared me for running a business
      Think for yourself, while its still somewhat legal!
      Clarkesville, Georgia

      Comment


        #33
        Originally posted by 480sparky View Post

        And who did Cut Corners hire to wire their next house? Joe's old helper from Fly-By-Night!
        Ah, but was his old helper fully licensed & insured as a contractor? If not, then who pulled the permit?

        Comment


          #34
          Originally posted by jeff48356 View Post

          Ah, but was his old helper fully licensed & insured as a contractor? If not, then who pulled the permit?
          He took the same route as Joe did only 3 months later.

          Comment


            #35
            Originally posted by electrofelon View Post

            What do you mean? Even of they are grouped it's a no no. Now a single feeder consisting of parallel conductors, of course that works. I think best to skip the pedestal discos and keep them as service conductors using 230.40 ex 2.
            They (the two feeders) ended up in the same trough , so if i blew it,what code did i violate ? ~RJ~

            Comment


              #36
              Originally posted by romex jockey View Post

              They (the two feeders) ended up in the same trough , so if i blew it,what code did i violate ? ~RJ~
              I believe its 225.30
              Ethan Brush - East West Electric. NY, WA. MA

              "You can't generalize"

              Comment


                #37
                There is some loophole that has been discussed before, where you make them taps using the outside tap rule, and 25.30 doesnt prohibit multiple TAPS supplying a building, or something like that. Then you would need a single 400 service disconnect however instead of the two 200's. But then you might as well make them service conductors and skip all the extra equipment.
                Ethan Brush - East West Electric. NY, WA. MA

                "You can't generalize"

                Comment


                  #38
                  hmmm, welllllll Electro, Milbank makes a 320A w/dual 200A OCPD's , and it appears outside main disco's may be on the horizon.

                  So i'm wondering where a compliant install would occur?

                  ~RJ~

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Originally posted by romex jockey View Post
                    hmmm, welllllll Electro, Milbank makes a 320A w/dual 200A OCPD's , and it appears outside main disco's may be on the horizon.

                    So i'm wondering where a compliant install would occur?

                    ~RJ~
                    There is the possibility that using the 2017 revised definition of structure (which reads '...other than equipment') one could say that 225.30 does not apply to a remote meter pedestal. But ignoring that, here is the way I see the options for running ~400 amps:

                    1. Use 230.40 exception 2 and skip the discos at the pedestal, put MB panels just inside, or discos outside if required by distance inside or new code. (best IMO).
                    2. Put the 2-200 meter with discos on the house.
                    3. Have one 400A at meter to 400 panelboard or use tap rules to split to 2-200A.
                    4. meter with 'ye old 2-200 feeders and Put a transfer switch in line with one of the 200's to invoke one of the exceptions in 225.30(A)
                    Ethan Brush - East West Electric. NY, WA. MA

                    "You can't generalize"

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Originally posted by electrofelon View Post

                      There is the possibility that using the 2017 revised definition of structure (which reads '...other than equipment') one could say that 225.30 does not apply to a remote meter pedestal. But ignoring that, here is the way I see the options for running ~400 amps:

                      1. Use 230.40 exception 2 and skip the discos at the pedestal, put MB panels just inside, or discos outside if required by distance inside or new code. (best IMO).
                      2. Put the 2-200 meter with discos on the house.
                      3. Have one 400A at meter to 400 panelboard or use tap rules to split to 2-200A.
                      4. meter with 'ye old 2-200 feeders and Put a transfer switch in line with one of the 200's to invoke one of the exceptions in 225.30(A)
                      Yeah, i'm readin' & thx Electro....i needed the enlightenment

                      ~RJ~

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Originally posted by electrofelon View Post
                        There is some loophole that has been discussed before, where you make them taps using the outside tap rule, and 25.30 doesnt prohibit multiple TAPS supplying a building, or something like that. Then you would need a single 400 service disconnect however instead of the two 200's. But then you might as well make them service conductors and skip all the extra equipment.
                        Are they not "feeder" taps if doing what you said, still making it two feeders? Tap rules are about overcurrent protection allowances and not so much about differentiation between service, feeder, branch circuit conductors.
                        I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

                        Comment


                          #42
                          Originally posted by kwired View Post

                          Are they not "feeder" taps if doing what you said, still making it two feeders? Tap rules are about overcurrent protection allowances and not so much about differentiation between service, feeder, branch circuit conductors.
                          Yes seems to me they are still feeders, just a special type of feeder.
                          Ethan Brush - East West Electric. NY, WA. MA

                          "You can't generalize"

                          Comment


                            #43
                            So I built a 600 amp service with a service rated ATS on an existing 6000 square foot house . Remodeled a couple of rooms and added some cans, security gates and a pool. When it's done it will be over 100k,

                            Comment


                              #44
                              191002-2054 EDT

                              jeff48356:

                              I am not in the business. But around here if you are close to town, then natural gas is about 1/5 the cost of electricity per BTU or kWH. Thus, most cost concerned customers that are knowledgable will use natural gas. That means gas stove, oven, furnace, hot water heater, and dryer. Not much real big electrical load other than those. With lots of LED lighting the lightling load is greatly reduced.

                              With a number of computers on and many lights I am generally below about 3 kW as a maximum, daily average is generally in the mid 35 kWH per day.

                              What roads are these houses near? Are these really 5000 sq-ft houses, or does that include the basement. I know some very well to do people in town with houses more in the 3000 to 4000 sq-ft range.

                              I think when you get to this size you need to sell function, and not so much power. There are many doctors in our area, and they are generally in somewhat under $1,000,000 homes, and both husband and wife are working. There are about 5000 doctors are U Hospital.

                              A few years back there was an individual just east of town that had about a 700 A service. I don't really know the need. Gas may not have been available. He was also probably on a pump. My son made bronze custom box covers for his home. Very expensive. Much of Pittsfield Township, south of Ann Arbor, is on Detroit water. Ann Arbor is on its own water. But supplying a water pump does not take a lot of energy. Areas below the Detroit water supply, and north of Saline are on well water.

                              Analyze what are the real needs of the customer.

                              .




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