Wiring a 5000+ square-foot house

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I see some of my friends out working for themselves, doing little more than making a living.
Two in particular say they are so busy they have to work six or seven days a week.
I tell them to raise their prices, they’re on the wrong side of the bell curve.
The way I see it, if you work for yourself, you should be charging enough to pay yourself a decent wage, and a vacation, along with some type of retirement.
no need to rip someone off, but charge a fair price. Your customers want all they can get out of you for nothing, don’t undersell yourself.

Not that I disagree, but there is some real world stuff that comes into play. Its not as simple to just raise you rates until you get that perfect 35-40 hours of work a week or whatever. There is feast and famine and the insecurity of not having enough work when things get slow. Some jobs you might not want to do but again there is that security/insecurity thing again and not wanting to lose a contact and possible referrals, etc. I have no debt nor mortgage and have some money saved, but I haven't forgotten what it was like to be starting out, have no buffer and hoping to make that next mortgage payment.
 

Hv&Lv

Senior Member
Location
-
Occupation
Engineer/Technician
Not that I disagree, but there is some real world stuff that comes into play. Its not as simple to just raise you rates until you get that perfect 35-40 hours of work a week or whatever. There is feast and famine and the insecurity of not having enough work when things get slow. Some jobs you might not want to do but again there is that security/insecurity thing again and not wanting to lose a contact and possible referrals, etc. I have no debt nor mortgage and have some money saved, but I haven't forgotten what it was like to be starting out, have no buffer and hoping to make that next mortgage payment.

I totally understand what your saying, but if your working six or seven days a week with low prices, the bell curve I was talking about should come into play. When you raise your rates, you increase your profits, get less work(weed our the trash work), and make the same money.
I'm not saying go up so much that you price yourself out of the market, just go up enough to increase your profits and get rid of the excess work from the cheapos that don’t want to pay for a nice electrical installation.
 
Location
NE (9.06 miles @5.9 Degrees from Winged Horses)
Occupation
EC - retired
I totally understand what your saying, but if your working six or seven days a week with low prices, the bell curve I was talking about should come into play. When you raise your rates, you increase your profits, get less work(weed our the trash work), and make the same money.
I'm not saying go up so much that you price yourself out of the market, just go up enough to increase your profits and get rid of the excess work from the cheapos that don’t want to pay for a nice electrical installation.

Exactly what I did about 20 years ago. Should have done it 15 years earlier.
 

oldsparky52

Senior Member
Not that I disagree, but there is some real world stuff that comes into play. Its not as simple to just raise you rates until you get that perfect 35-40 hours of work a week or whatever. There is feast and famine and the insecurity of not having enough work when things get slow. Some jobs you might not want to do but again there is that security/insecurity thing again and not wanting to lose a contact and possible referrals, etc. I have no debt nor mortgage and have some money saved, but I haven't forgotten what it was like to be starting out, have no buffer and hoping to make that next mortgage payment.

You make good points.

More than once though, I was so busy with cheap work that I did not have time to respond to lucrative work. After I changed my pricing (after I didn't have to worry about paying the bills for the next few months) I found that there seemed to be a great profit job show up that needed immediate attention and I was available because I was not working 6 days a week trying to keep up with all the cheap work I did.

My best work was always from "relationships". The "bid" work was nothing but a pain in my side.

It also depends on whether you are a one man show, a small shop, or a large shop. There is truth to low profit work is better than no work.

I agree it's not as easy as it sounds.
 

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
Years ago, Joe Sixpack got a job as a helper for Fly-By-Night Electric. He started out working with a journeyman wiring houses for Cut Corners Construction. Joe turned out to be a pretty good electrician, learning fast and working hard. As the years went by, Joe got pretty good at wiring houses. Soon, he was running the jobs himself, and had his own helper.

Then recently, Joe got to thinking. "Fly-By-Night charges Cut Corners ten grand to wire a house. I know I get paid about $1500, and my helper gets $1000. I know the material costs around $2500.......... so that means the boss is making five thousand just sitting at the office endorsing checks!"

So Joe decides to strike out on his own. "Man, this'll be great! I'll charge just $7000 to wire the houses, and with only $2500 in material, I'll pocket $4500 for each house I do....... Jeez, that's more than three times what I was making when I was working for 'the man'!"

So Joe hangs out his shingle. He doesn't have any health insurance, thinking he'll get that later when things really get started. Suddenly, he realizes he needs to be licensed. So he takes the test, and spends more money for the test and license. He also doesn't understand that driving his own truck costs money, both in gas, repairs, insurance, etc.

All fired up, he gets his first job for Cut Corners. Right from the start, Cut Corners wants a current liability insurance certificate. So Joe forks out $3000 for insurance. A few weeks later, he gets a letter from the state saying he's not a registered contractor. So another $600 is spent. Oh, yea, the city says they need $1250 for a permit.

A few days into the first job, Cut Corners says they need temporary power. Joe didn't figure the cost of a temp pole into the job, but he builds one and gets it hooked up. Joe finds out he needs more than a 3/8" drill and 4-foot stepladder. So he goes out and buys more cords and a couple ladders. Every time Joe needs material or another tool, he'd drive down to Home Depot and whip out the plastic. Pretty soon, he realizes he's a couple days behind schedule. Why? He's working alone and doesn't have his old helper with him.

So Joe starts working 12-hours days, and a couple Saturdays as well. He skips his daughter's dance recital, and misses his son's Little League game. He comes home dirty, tired and grouchy, which cause his family to stay away from him.

By the time the house is roughed in, his credit card is maxed out and Joe needs to borrow money from his parents. "Just until I get this job done, then I'll be rolling in dough" he tells them. He borrows even more money just to buy the material he needs to trim the house. By this time, he has alienated his family and taken his credit rating down below 400.

And the sad truth is, by the time job is done, he's been paid only $7000 and has spent $14000 just to 'be in business'. So he tells Cut Corners the next job will be $8500, thinking he can 'make it up' on the future work. But even that 'extra' $1500 'from the next job' won't cover his $7000 shortfall. Besides, Cut Corners won't hire him again because Joe caused them to get behind on their schedule. And to add insult to injury, they found someone else to do the job for less.

Dejected, Joe goes home, only to find a letter from the IRS saying they want $3250 for the income tax Joe owes from that job. The state also wants $675 for sales tax. All the 'profit' Joe thought he was going to make went to pay his bills, leaving nothing to pay his parents back with.



And who did Cut Corners hire to wire their next house? Joe's old helper from Fly-By-Night!
 

Hv&Lv

Senior Member
Location
-
Occupation
Engineer/Technician
Years ago, Joe Sixpack got a job as a helper for Fly-By-Night Electric. He started out working with a journeyman wiring houses for Cut Corners Construction. Joe turned out to be a pretty good electrician, learning fast and working hard. As the years went by, Joe got pretty good at wiring houses. Soon, he was running the jobs himself, and had his own helper.

Then recently, Joe got to thinking. "Fly-By-Night charges Cut Corners ten grand to wire a house. I know I get paid about $1500, and my helper gets $1000. I know the material costs around $2500.......... so that means the boss is making five thousand just sitting at the office endorsing checks!"

So Joe decides to strike out on his own. "Man, this'll be great! I'll charge just $7000 to wire the houses, and with only $2500 in material, I'll pocket $4500 for each house I do....... Jeez, that's more than three times what I was making when I was working for 'the man'!"

So Joe hangs out his shingle. He doesn't have any health insurance, thinking he'll get that later when things really get started. Suddenly, he realizes he needs to be licensed. So he takes the test, and spends more money for the test and license. He also doesn't understand that driving his own truck costs money, both in gas, repairs, insurance, etc.

All fired up, he gets his first job for Cut Corners. Right from the start, Cut Corners wants a current liability insurance certificate. So Joe forks out $3000 for insurance. A few weeks later, he gets a letter from the state saying he's not a registered contractor. So another $600 is spent. Oh, yea, the city says they need $1250 for a permit.

A few days into the first job, Cut Corners says they need temporary power. Joe didn't figure the cost of a temp pole into the job, but he builds one and gets it hooked up. Joe finds out he needs more than a 3/8" drill and 4-foot stepladder. So he goes out and buys more cords and a couple ladders. Every time Joe needs material or another tool, he'd drive down to Home Depot and whip out the plastic. Pretty soon, he realizes he's a couple days behind schedule. Why? He's working alone and doesn't have his old helper with him.

So Joe starts working 12-hours days, and a couple Saturdays as well. He skips his daughter's dance recital, and misses his son's Little League game. He comes home dirty, tired and grouchy, which cause his family to stay away from him.

By the time the house is roughed in, his credit card is maxed out and Joe needs to borrow money from his parents. "Just until I get this job done, then I'll be rolling in dough" he tells them. He borrows even more money just to buy the material he needs to trim the house. By this time, he has alienated his family and taken his credit rating down below 400.

And the sad truth is, by the time job is done, he's been paid only $7000 and has spent $14000 just to 'be in business'. So he tells Cut Corners the next job will be $8500, thinking he can 'make it up' on the future work. But even that 'extra' $1500 'from the next job' won't cover his $7000 shortfall. Besides, Cut Corners won't hire him again because Joe caused them to get behind on their schedule. And to add insult to injury, they found someone else to do the job for less.

Dejected, Joe goes home, only to find a letter from the IRS saying they want $3250 for the income tax Joe owes from that job. The state also wants $675 for sales tax. All the 'profit' Joe thought he was going to make went to pay his bills, leaving nothing to pay his parents back with.



And who did Cut Corners hire to wire their next house? Joe's old helper from Fly-By-Night!

:lol:

sad, but true.
 

readydave8

re member
Location
Clarkesville, Georgia
Occupation
electrician
My career went well, but unfortunately took the 1st 25 years to learn what others have posted here. Made the last 15 years easier tho

I was good at electrical work, which in no way prepared me for running a business
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician
What do you mean? Even of they are grouped it's a no no. Now a single feeder consisting of parallel conductors, of course that works. I think best to skip the pedestal discos and keep them as service conductors using 230.40 ex 2.

They (the two feeders) ended up in the same trough , so if i blew it,what code did i violate ? :dunce: ~RJ~
 
There is some loophole that has been discussed before, where you make them taps using the outside tap rule, and 25.30 doesnt prohibit multiple TAPS supplying a building, or something like that. Then you would need a single 400 service disconnect however instead of the two 200's. But then you might as well make them service conductors and skip all the extra equipment.
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician
hmmm, welllllll Electro, Milbank makes a 320A w/dual 200A OCPD's , and it appears outside main disco's may be on the horizon.

So i'm wondering where a compliant install would occur?

~RJ~
 
hmmm, welllllll Electro, Milbank makes a 320A w/dual 200A OCPD's , and it appears outside main disco's may be on the horizon.

So i'm wondering where a compliant install would occur?

~RJ~

There is the possibility that using the 2017 revised definition of structure (which reads '...other than equipment') one could say that 225.30 does not apply to a remote meter pedestal. But ignoring that, here is the way I see the options for running ~400 amps:

1. Use 230.40 exception 2 and skip the discos at the pedestal, put MB panels just inside, or discos outside if required by distance inside or new code. (best IMO).
2. Put the 2-200 meter with discos on the house.
3. Have one 400A at meter to 400 panelboard or use tap rules to split to 2-200A.
4. meter with 'ye old 2-200 feeders and Put a transfer switch in line with one of the 200's to invoke one of the exceptions in 225.30(A)
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician
There is the possibility that using the 2017 revised definition of structure (which reads '...other than equipment') one could say that 225.30 does not apply to a remote meter pedestal. But ignoring that, here is the way I see the options for running ~400 amps:

1. Use 230.40 exception 2 and skip the discos at the pedestal, put MB panels just inside, or discos outside if required by distance inside or new code. (best IMO).
2. Put the 2-200 meter with discos on the house.
3. Have one 400A at meter to 400 panelboard or use tap rules to split to 2-200A.
4. meter with 'ye old 2-200 feeders and Put a transfer switch in line with one of the 200's to invoke one of the exceptions in 225.30(A)

Yeah, i'm readin' & thx Electro....i needed the enlightenment

~RJ~
 
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