Refusing to do a job

[romex jockey]

Burn the bridge?
:happyno:
I'd nuke it so every GC in town could see the mushroom cloud!

:happyyes:
~RJ~

 

[goldstar]

This is just my opinion but when I see the things you saw I say to myself "the liability is greater than what the job is worth". Now that you've taken on the job on a T&M basis make sure you inspect as many aspects of the electrical system as you possibly can because somewhere down the line it may come back to bite you.

With that said we ALL never really know what we're walking into on a renovation job. I'd like to think that the original jobs were done by qualified EC's but we've all been to the rodeo before and know that's not the case. I just looked at a large basement remodel in my town. When I got there the walls were already sheet-rocked and there were a total of 3 receptacles in the whole basement. When I asked about it the HO told me that her father just rocked the walls and the receptacles were already there. Then, she just wanted me to run wire for recessed lights and leave the whips at designated locations and her husband would do all the final connections. I'm not one to walk away from work but I priced this at about 4 times what it would normally cost. I guess that's a polite way to say "I don't want the job".

 

[AC\DC]

I Just Told him it would be T&M. Have not touched it, and have not heard back. I think he has someone else doing it. Most EC in are coastal area won't pull a permit for small remodel.

 

[tortuga]

...Their were wires spliced in the wall and they did the work themself ...

Welcome to Lane county Oregon AC\DC, that is one beautiful part of the coast your on! I learned allot from an old master whom once lived out there in Florence.
In the great state of Oregon an electrical License is required to make any electrical installation. In this liberal blue land where all kinds of green things are legal they are amazingly serious about permits and licenses. I am assuming your a one man show and thus a 'General Supervising Electrician' the laws all but compel you to turn people in for working without a license.
oh and yeah a license and permit is required for just about anything other than 'plugging in listed cord and plug equipment other than on a stage' and ' changing a lamp '.
Yes they license stage electricians in Oregon, whom are allowed to plug things in (after they calc the loads).
Oregon Revised Statute section 479.530(10) defines an electrical installation as:

Electrical installations” means the construction or installation of electrical wiring and the permanent attachment or installation of electrical products in or on any structure that is not itself an electrical product. “Electrical installation” also means the maintenance or repair of installed electrical wiring and permanently attached electrical products. “Electrical installation” does not include an oil module.

(big oil companies win every time)


Oregon Administrative Rule OAR 918-282-0015 requires "Electrical contractors engaged in the business of making electrical installations that require a signing supervising electrician shall assure that all electrical work is made by, or under the direct supervision or control of, a continuously employed full-time signing supervising electrician acting within the scope of their license."

OAR 918-282-0140(2) The general signing supervising electrician must: (f)

Ensure electricians have proper licenses for the work performed, and may not permit either by assent or by failure to prevent, an individual to perform work for which they are not properly licensed;

The laws are easy to find and speak for themselves.

Once your hired on the job you are obligated to prevent individuals from performing work for which they are not properly licensed.

Yeah its a small town and yes that contractor is testing you because your the new guy. I'd tell them straight you'll need to open it up, replace everything they have done all the way back to the breaker in the panel. Then pull a permit for 1 branch circuit from Lane County and get it inspected. Anything that will be 'covered' requires a cover inspection.

 

[Rdcowart]

About two months ago I got called out on a Saturday for an emergency call. When I arrived I started talking to the home owner about what was going on and he started telling me that he had no power. When I walked in I saw why he had hired a couple of guys to rewire his home. The more I looked the more I found. So I stopped and told him there is no way I will be able to finish this wiring job. I explained that the guys he hired had the washer on with the bathroom and outside outlets. Yeah there was just to much to name. So long story short I told him that I would only do the work if I started over, and of course he got upset. It’s not worth the risk. Remember at the end of the day you have to sleep at night.?

 

[jmellc]

Good for you. You saved yourself a massive headache. No telling what you would have encountered. I've walked away from a few of those things too.

 

[contol]

I would never do a job unless I did all the work myself. I don't hook up other people's electrical work to power sources. If I saw all that hack work going on, I would turn right around and walk out. In fact, I might even tell the local electrical inspector what I just saw, because obviously they don't have a permit.

 

[jeff48356]

I ended up telling him I have to abandon existing wire if walls are not opened back up and rewire as needed. Price was T&M, he seemed fine with it said money not an issue. GC just scare the crap out of me think they can do all aspects of a building.
Also think I might talk to my lawyer and see what he can write up.

Thank you guys on your help.

I would still swing by the city hall and tell the building officials about all that's going on at that house. They're obviously not pulling permits as required, cutting corners, disregarding safety issues, and just trying to save a few bucks. The building inspector will probably make him tear off all the drywall to expose everything, then any electrician can pull a permit and do all the electrical work to Code, have it inspected, and move forward from there.

 

[S-117]

I don’t know if I have this in the right section
I have two questions for you guys!


safety and liability are my biggest concern
rather go broke from no work then get sued for a life or fire!

that is why i rarely take in work. I think i took like 3 jobs in the past 3 years. It ALWAYS becomes a hassle when dealing with existing homes. you always end up doing up doing more work than you agreed to and even if you don't just getting your job done will require extra steps that were unforseen until you open up that wall.

My guess is that’s why he called you.
The others in the area he would have or did call have already refused to do his work would be my guess...

i was gonna say if the job may be big enough, call another contractor to share the work and let them know the issue.
Even when i took a job and subbed it to another EC, that guy screwed up too (via his worker).

its ridiculous that you always gotta babysit the work

 

[sw_ross]

I took on a small job last spring to run 3 circuits for 3 PTAC units in a commercial install.
The "handyman/carpenter" that was in charge of the project is known to do his own electrical and then pull in an electrician when things like involved switching were beyond his capabilities.
I knew that he would do whatever electrical he could handle on this project. I warned him that he couldn't do electrical work himself and that this job will be inspected, especially since it's a new business that is open to the public.

I have a good working relationship with the local AHJ. He was actually at this sight a month earlier with me because of some work I was doing at an adjacent unit, so he saw "the before". I called him and talked about the situation. He advised me to be very specific and descriptive in my scope of work for the wiring cert. After I finished my work I called for a final. I forewarned the inspector that he would see some electrical work that was not done by me and was not part of my wiring cert.

I met him at the site to go over my work. He saw the other work done, then he left to "have a conversation" with the owner of the structure.
I felt good and slept well that night!

 

[jeff48356]

I met him at the site to go over my work. He saw the other work done, then he left to "have a conversation" with the owner of the structure.
I felt good and slept well that night!

Kudos to you!! I run into a TON of DIY hack work in people's houses around here that warrant such a conversation between the homeowner/handyman and the electrical inspector!

 

[jmellc]

When I had my business, I was starving but still walked away from a few jobs. They were nothing but trouble waiting to happen.

By & large, residential is the electrical wasteland. I’ve seen houses full of trashy work in every square foot. If I had it to do over, I would have tried going after nothing but whole house rewires. They were tedious but I left each one knowing I had good work all the way through. My only callback was for TR receptacles not working. Hubble brand, high dollar junk. I replaced them all with Cooper & no more calls.

Working for others after that, I called boss a few times & said “You don’t want this”. Was cleared to tell prospect we couldn’t help him & drive away. Too much obvious junk & too many unknowns.

 

[hillbilly1]

I just had a talk with a group of guys this morning about this. One guy turned on a system last week that equipment safeguards had been bypassed because the HO said he was okay with it. If you the licensed, certified professional touch it and someone gets hurt or property damaged, the lawyers will look at you and your company and your license first.

Don’t even have to be a home owner, I was burned by a customers engineer. He drew up the prints for their new plant, he omitted the gfep for a specially designed piece of equipment. Couldn’t find anything in the code that covered that type of installation, so I went along with it. After the subsequent fire due to their maintenance person installing it incorrectly (couldn’t see how he installed it because he just left a tail hanging out for me to connect too) the lawyers and insurance company went after us. We won, but the lawyers insisted we knew more than what the engineer did..............

 

[Besoeker3]

I say "declined' might be a better way of puting it.

 

[LarryFine]

We won, but the lawyers insisted we knew more than what the engineer did..............

That you did know more, or that you should have known more?

 

[hillbilly1]

That you did know more, or that you should have known more?

I think they were implying that we should have known more than the college degree engineer!

 

[jimmyglen]

the best way to handle a situation like this is with your price.
Write your scope of work with what you think needs to be done.
Attach your price to the above scope of work.
Add $$ for any issues on the job

then the ball is in their court

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

Like others had said, be upfront and honest about your concerns. If you really want or need to do this job explain to him exactly what needs to be done by the GC and yourself to complete this job to your standards.
It's your business on the line. The GC should understand and respect you for it.
If he doesn't he's not worth doing business with.
Good luck!