starting to branching out into the residential network systems. could i get an idea of the going rates that people charge for installing these systems in texas. i'm looking at installing speed wrap cable on my next job along with all the electrical( speedwrap - two fibre optic, two phone, two tv). any information would be much appreciated
residential network systems
- Thread starter puzzler
- Start date
- Status
hbiss
EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
- Location
- Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
- Occupation
- EC
Re: residential network systems
Not really an answer your question but offering a recommendation. I wouldn't bother with fiber. As a mater of fact I wouldn't even bother with "speed wrap cable".
Anytime I've seen this stuff (I call it "everything known to man cable") the installer had no clue about the fiber and just cut it the same length as the coax's and cat 5's. Now it's useless because you can't terminate it, though I doubt anybody would make use of it anyway in a residential setting.
I've seen this stuff run to a jack location for a tiny telephone table in a hallway just for the telephone. Like that location is really going to need the fiber and coax!
I've been wiring buildings for voice, data and TV for over 30 years and this stuff is the dumbest thing I have ever seen!
If you want to get into the LV and data networking business, don't rely on this junk as a crutch, do it right. Telephones, computers and televisions aren't always together at the same location. A separate CAT5 should be run to each data and telephone location, two RG/6 type coax's (swept to 2500Mhz) to each TV location. This should handle all CATV and satellite situations. It's always a good idea to install additional jack locations to cover future possibilities.
One of the big problems is that whatever you run today, particularly data wiring, is going to be obsolete in a relatively short time. If you REALLY want to be slick (read extra money) install everything in a flexible NM raceway to an accessable location. Then when todays CAT5e becomes obsolete use it as a drag line to pull the latest in. Try that with "everything known to man cable"! Carlon makes some interesting products for this.
Keep in mind that wireless networking is making big inroads and is getting faster and faster. That's why I say forget about fiber because it's going to be more efficient in most instances just to go to a wireless setup.
Not really an answer your question but offering a recommendation. I wouldn't bother with fiber. As a mater of fact I wouldn't even bother with "speed wrap cable".
Anytime I've seen this stuff (I call it "everything known to man cable") the installer had no clue about the fiber and just cut it the same length as the coax's and cat 5's. Now it's useless because you can't terminate it, though I doubt anybody would make use of it anyway in a residential setting.
I've seen this stuff run to a jack location for a tiny telephone table in a hallway just for the telephone. Like that location is really going to need the fiber and coax!
I've been wiring buildings for voice, data and TV for over 30 years and this stuff is the dumbest thing I have ever seen!
If you want to get into the LV and data networking business, don't rely on this junk as a crutch, do it right. Telephones, computers and televisions aren't always together at the same location. A separate CAT5 should be run to each data and telephone location, two RG/6 type coax's (swept to 2500Mhz) to each TV location. This should handle all CATV and satellite situations. It's always a good idea to install additional jack locations to cover future possibilities.
One of the big problems is that whatever you run today, particularly data wiring, is going to be obsolete in a relatively short time. If you REALLY want to be slick (read extra money) install everything in a flexible NM raceway to an accessable location. Then when todays CAT5e becomes obsolete use it as a drag line to pull the latest in. Try that with "everything known to man cable"! Carlon makes some interesting products for this.
Keep in mind that wireless networking is making big inroads and is getting faster and faster. That's why I say forget about fiber because it's going to be more efficient in most instances just to go to a wireless setup.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: residential network systems
I've been using wireless LAN since 1990. It was buggy then, and it's buggy now. Wireless is becoming more ubiquitous. Wireless may be the future, but wire or fiber is a lot better for now. Fiber has amazing bandwidth. I like your idea of running a conduit. That would allow future scalability.
tonyi
Senior Member
Re: residential network systems
I strung shielded ICS all over and have a token ring network between the place and the neighbors. The stuff is silent as a crypt electrically and FAST. 16mbps Token Ring is comparable to 100mbps Ethernet under real life combat conditions. I'm using the neighbor's DSL line right now through a proxy server. I got about 5 cubic yards of token ring cable and gear off eBay about 4 years ago for the cost of a single wireless access point. There's enough gear here to network 100+ machines if I wanted to
Pervasive wireless scares the hell out of me from a security POV.
I strung shielded ICS all over and have a token ring network between the place and the neighbors. The stuff is silent as a crypt electrically and FAST. 16mbps Token Ring is comparable to 100mbps Ethernet under real life combat conditions. I'm using the neighbor's DSL line right now through a proxy server. I got about 5 cubic yards of token ring cable and gear off eBay about 4 years ago for the cost of a single wireless access point. There's enough gear here to network 100+ machines if I wanted to
Pervasive wireless scares the hell out of me from a security POV.
brian john
Senior Member
- Location
- Leesburg, VA
Re: residential network systems
Pervasive wireless scares the hell out of me from a security POV
This has me scared also, the fact that a DIY'r might me able to peak in on my chat room discussions in this site is worrisome............ LOL...................
Pervasive wireless scares the hell out of me from a security POV
This has me scared also, the fact that a DIY'r might me able to peak in on my chat room discussions in this site is worrisome............ LOL...................
Re: residential network systems
Wireless networking is not buggy if one knows what one is doing. The problem is that most home computer users don't have a clue about any type of networking, wired or wireless.
As for security, wireless networks are moderately secure if set up properly. Again, setting them up is the hard part for most home users.
In regards to running wires for telephone and computer, my recommendation is to skip the phone wires and run three or four cat-5e cables to each location. Cat-5 cables and jacks work for computer networks and they also work for telephones. This setup will yield the maximum felixibility for the homeowner.
[ September 30, 2003, 08:24 AM: Message edited by: racraft ]
Wireless networking is not buggy if one knows what one is doing. The problem is that most home computer users don't have a clue about any type of networking, wired or wireless.
As for security, wireless networks are moderately secure if set up properly. Again, setting them up is the hard part for most home users.
In regards to running wires for telephone and computer, my recommendation is to skip the phone wires and run three or four cat-5e cables to each location. Cat-5 cables and jacks work for computer networks and they also work for telephones. This setup will yield the maximum felixibility for the homeowner.
[ September 30, 2003, 08:24 AM: Message edited by: racraft ]
Re: residential network systems
Sorry puzzler, everyone has branched off into another topic and have not answered your question--interesting discussion though.
I cannot offer you any guidance on pricing as I am looking for pricing guidance as well in KY.
I do know that alot of computer servicing companies are beginning to install networks now in residences as well as wireless. I have spoken to a few of these guys and in some homes they are installing full ethernet architectured networks including a network server. This home sounded more as a place of business.
I plan on probing around trying to get some pricing info from them and will let you know if I am successful.
Sorry puzzler, everyone has branched off into another topic and have not answered your question--interesting discussion though.
I cannot offer you any guidance on pricing as I am looking for pricing guidance as well in KY.
I do know that alot of computer servicing companies are beginning to install networks now in residences as well as wireless. I have spoken to a few of these guys and in some homes they are installing full ethernet architectured networks including a network server. This home sounded more as a place of business.
I plan on probing around trying to get some pricing info from them and will let you know if I am successful.
scott thompson
Senior Member
- Location
- Anaheim, California
Re: residential network systems
Tonyi;
Or are you referring to Sheilded Single Twisted Pair - looks like Thinnet (COAX), but isn't?
Is it Type 6?
Or is it UTP (CAT 5)?
Just curious...
BTW, I have several MSAUs for 4/16 MB Token Ring (8 Ts + Ring in/Ring out..of course... with Type 1 terminations) if anyone needs one or two.
Scott35
on a similar subject, one of the benefits of Token Ring vs Ethernet is the major reduction in packet crashes, plus latency resulting from said packet's having head-on collisions. Workstations on an Ethernet Network tend to just fire out packets whenever needed, and when packets crash, the whole Network sits there "Shocked" by the incident for a little while, then go back to tossing packets out again!
Reminds me of some drivers on LA freeways!
Tonyi;
By Token Ring cable, are you referring to IBM Type 1?
Or are you referring to Sheilded Single Twisted Pair - looks like Thinnet (COAX), but isn't?
Is it Type 6?
Or is it UTP (CAT 5)?
Just curious...
BTW, I have several MSAUs for 4/16 MB Token Ring (8 Ts + Ring in/Ring out..of course... with Type 1 terminations) if anyone needs one or two.
Scott35
on a similar subject, one of the benefits of Token Ring vs Ethernet is the major reduction in packet crashes, plus latency resulting from said packet's having head-on collisions. Workstations on an Ethernet Network tend to just fire out packets whenever needed, and when packets crash, the whole Network sits there "Shocked" by the incident for a little while, then go back to tossing packets out again!
Reminds me of some drivers on LA freeways!
G
Guest
Guest
Re: residential network systems
Getting back to the question at hand, if you run conventional cabling (CAT-5/CAT-5e/CAT-6 & RG-6) you may be in the $100-$200 per node range for rough and finish. If you have to go plenum rated, then add $. Also, depends on the framing methods. It's best to keep data cables separate from HV. Shielding or pipe can be helpful there. Better to go beyond code minimums-- I like to stay a foot away or more if parallel to HV; stay away from electronic dimmers; fluorescent/electronic ballast; etc. In the $100-$200 range you should be way low. Better yet, charge more. The material cost is nominal unless you have to go pipe and/or plenum-- or shielded. Those are all good things if they are in the specs or in the budget.
Your best bet is to just take your material cost, add on your labor estimate, tack on some P&O and see how it goes. After your first one you'll better know what's viable. Speed wrap will increase your material cost, but may slightly lower your labor factor. There is some extra cake in these jobs assuming not too many EC's know how to do it properly. Study up on how to do a clean install, and then you can separate yourself from your average EC. The more you charge & the better job you do, the better clients you will attract.
Do you have a good wholesale source for the hard goods?
I am a big champion of wireless. Trust me, it's not there yet. It's not rock solid yet. I use it, but it's imperfect compared to a wired system. If you can go wires, go wires.
Getting back to the question at hand, if you run conventional cabling (CAT-5/CAT-5e/CAT-6 & RG-6) you may be in the $100-$200 per node range for rough and finish. If you have to go plenum rated, then add $. Also, depends on the framing methods. It's best to keep data cables separate from HV. Shielding or pipe can be helpful there. Better to go beyond code minimums-- I like to stay a foot away or more if parallel to HV; stay away from electronic dimmers; fluorescent/electronic ballast; etc. In the $100-$200 range you should be way low. Better yet, charge more. The material cost is nominal unless you have to go pipe and/or plenum-- or shielded. Those are all good things if they are in the specs or in the budget.
Your best bet is to just take your material cost, add on your labor estimate, tack on some P&O and see how it goes. After your first one you'll better know what's viable. Speed wrap will increase your material cost, but may slightly lower your labor factor. There is some extra cake in these jobs assuming not too many EC's know how to do it properly. Study up on how to do a clean install, and then you can separate yourself from your average EC. The more you charge & the better job you do, the better clients you will attract.
Do you have a good wholesale source for the hard goods?
tonyi
Senior Member
Re: residential network systems
I equipped my neighbor with an 8228 MAU, and I've got a Thomas Conrad 16 port in the office with another 8228 in the garage. The garage is only a 4M ring - going through an 8209 T/R bridge (that way I only had to pull one wire through rather than two to make a complete ring to the backbone 16M ring). Even at 4M, a machine in the garage can play streaming video through the 4M and bridge and not miss a beat. There's an 8229 bridge awaiting deployment to the garage as a replacement for the 8209. The 8229's are supposed to be somewhat faster than the 8209's bridging.
Yep, ICS Type 1 - the Mercedes of copper T/R cabling systems.
I equipped my neighbor with an 8228 MAU, and I've got a Thomas Conrad 16 port in the office with another 8228 in the garage. The garage is only a 4M ring - going through an 8209 T/R bridge (that way I only had to pull one wire through rather than two to make a complete ring to the backbone 16M ring). Even at 4M, a machine in the garage can play streaming video through the 4M and bridge and not miss a beat. There's an 8229 bridge awaiting deployment to the garage as a replacement for the 8209. The 8229's are supposed to be somewhat faster than the 8209's bridging.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: residential network systems
LOL
Darn right! you never know the lengths DIYs will go to find out the inside scoop on us tradesmen.
LOL Re: residential network systems
I agree, go wired whenever possible, but it is not always possible or desirable. For example, there is the person who wants to move his laptop anywhere in the house, or even into the back yard so he can watch his children in the pool while working.
Wireless is not going away. You can either embrace it, which means understand it and know when it is appropriate and not appropriate, and know how to install it, or you can ignore it and allow someone else to make money on that portion of a job.
I agree, go wired whenever possible, but it is not always possible or desirable. For example, there is the person who wants to move his laptop anywhere in the house, or even into the back yard so he can watch his children in the pool while working.
Wireless is not going away. You can either embrace it, which means understand it and know when it is appropriate and not appropriate, and know how to install it, or you can ignore it and allow someone else to make money on that portion of a job.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: residential network systems
A wireless node as pointed out can be a very helpful thing to have on your network. I would have a wired backbone, and then a wireless node for the other uses mentioned. Every year it gets a little smoother and a little more user friendly.
../Wayne C.
A wireless node as pointed out can be a very helpful thing to have on your network. I would have a wired backbone, and then a wireless node for the other uses mentioned. Every year it gets a little smoother and a little more user friendly.
../Wayne C.
jrdsg
Senior Member
- Location
- Vancouver, Canada
Re: residential network systems
loved this thread, LOL
my home wireless lan is 128 bit encrypted for security and ten times faster than my high-speed internet connection. i can sit on my deck and surf the net or check my email from my palm pilot anywhere in the house.
re collisions on ethernet: get a switch instead of a hub. this results in a huge reduction in broadcast storms and collisions, since packets are directed to the appropriate port rather than all ports.
there is also something to be said for the relative ease of installation of CAT5e cable and terminations vs coax. especially at the head end.
Cat5e plenum cable is also significantly less expensive than equivalent coax, and can carry way more traffic. a single cat5e cable can service four video cameras and up to 1000Mbps in ethernet traffic with the right electronics at the ends.
high-density punchdown locations really lessen the real estate requirements at the closet end.
$100-200 US per drop for Cat5e? Not where I live. I could hire a few more hands at those rates.
love you guys.
oh,yeah. use quad-shield rg6 for the catv and satellite feeds along with quality conical or compression f-connectors.
see http://www.onqtech.com/pdf_lib/ProdCatalog/Home_Infra/OnQInstallationTools.pdf for tool/connector details.
the onqtech website is also an idea source for layout suggestions.
[ October 02, 2003, 11:36 PM: Message edited by: jrdsg ]
loved this thread, LOL
my home wireless lan is 128 bit encrypted for security and ten times faster than my high-speed internet connection. i can sit on my deck and surf the net or check my email from my palm pilot anywhere in the house.
re collisions on ethernet: get a switch instead of a hub. this results in a huge reduction in broadcast storms and collisions, since packets are directed to the appropriate port rather than all ports.
there is also something to be said for the relative ease of installation of CAT5e cable and terminations vs coax. especially at the head end.
Cat5e plenum cable is also significantly less expensive than equivalent coax, and can carry way more traffic. a single cat5e cable can service four video cameras and up to 1000Mbps in ethernet traffic with the right electronics at the ends.
high-density punchdown locations really lessen the real estate requirements at the closet end.
$100-200 US per drop for Cat5e? Not where I live. I could hire a few more hands at those rates.
love you guys.
oh,yeah. use quad-shield rg6 for the catv and satellite feeds along with quality conical or compression f-connectors.
see http://www.onqtech.com/pdf_lib/ProdCatalog/Home_Infra/OnQInstallationTools.pdf for tool/connector details.
the onqtech website is also an idea source for layout suggestions.
[ October 02, 2003, 11:36 PM: Message edited by: jrdsg ]
G
Guest
Guest
Re: residential network systems
The original question still goes largely unanswered.
[ October 03, 2003, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: awwt ]
What part was funny to you?
Wireless is the way to go-- if you want to surf away from a wired node. When it works it works very well. When it doesn't work it doesn't work.
An unmanaged switch does not do packet routing. An unmanaged switch only changes the way bandwidth is allocated.
True. There is less & less need for co-ax. STP or UTP CAT-5/CAT-5e/CAT-6 will do a lot more. Safest bet may be to pull two 8-wire CAT-5/5e/6 plus two RG-6 co-ax.
Can you break this down for us? Price it out with a couple of CAT-x's and a couple of RG-6's plus finish into a 4-keystone wall-plate.
Broken link.
The original question still goes largely unanswered.
[ October 03, 2003, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: awwt ]
hbiss
EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
- Location
- Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
- Occupation
- EC
Re: residential network systems
Okay. Back to the original question.
...$100-200 US per drop for Cat5e?
It all depends on how it needs to be installed and where it needs to go. For a commercial job with dropped ceilings, easy access, wire fished down the walls to a low voltage ring cut-in the sheet rock and less than 100 feet per run, $100-200 per run is about right where we are. This would include a patch panel, jacks and each run tested for continuity with an automatic tester after termination. (No certification). Keep in mind that most times the cable needs to be plenum rated which nearly triples the cost of the cable. Hangers and other supports add to the installation cost. Also, it's almost impossible to install CAT5 properly by yourself. It kinks, coils and gets caught on everything.
If everything must be fished or run in raceway on the surface then cost per run will be much more. We get alot of offices and homes that are wood frame construction, some very old, and costs for running network cabling shouldn't be any less than for a substantial rewiring if you do the job right.
Problem is there isn't any licensing, code (beyond what the NEC says) or inspection requirement for this kind of work in most parts so many times you will have to compete with hackers who will kink the cable all over the place and don't care how they run it. There isn't anybody or anything to say "you can't do it that way" and the owners usually don't know the difference so it can be a tough sell. Best bet is to build a reputation with the "computer guys" who will recommend you for the work because they know you will do it right and when you are done all they have to do is plug everything in.
Okay. Back to the original question.
...$100-200 US per drop for Cat5e?
It all depends on how it needs to be installed and where it needs to go. For a commercial job with dropped ceilings, easy access, wire fished down the walls to a low voltage ring cut-in the sheet rock and less than 100 feet per run, $100-200 per run is about right where we are. This would include a patch panel, jacks and each run tested for continuity with an automatic tester after termination. (No certification). Keep in mind that most times the cable needs to be plenum rated which nearly triples the cost of the cable. Hangers and other supports add to the installation cost. Also, it's almost impossible to install CAT5 properly by yourself. It kinks, coils and gets caught on everything.
If everything must be fished or run in raceway on the surface then cost per run will be much more. We get alot of offices and homes that are wood frame construction, some very old, and costs for running network cabling shouldn't be any less than for a substantial rewiring if you do the job right.
Problem is there isn't any licensing, code (beyond what the NEC says) or inspection requirement for this kind of work in most parts so many times you will have to compete with hackers who will kink the cable all over the place and don't care how they run it. There isn't anybody or anything to say "you can't do it that way" and the owners usually don't know the difference so it can be a tough sell. Best bet is to build a reputation with the "computer guys" who will recommend you for the work because they know you will do it right and when you are done all they have to do is plug everything in.
jrdsg
Senior Member
- Location
- Vancouver, Canada
Re: residential network systems
hbiss restates many of the reasons wireless networking is so popular in finished homes. the cost and bother of running cabling is way out of proportion to what a wireless lan [mostly plug-in parts] costs. my wireless router was about $25US and the pcmcia card for my notebook was only $45US.
************awwt, thanks for your reply.
i sometimes need to read the board more carefully. when i suggested $100-200 was on the high side, i was thinking one cat5e drop or even a cat5e + cat3 tel. truthfully, when we install our preferred configuration, 2 x rg6 + 2 x cat5e, we are charging residential clients $120 US plus the cost of the head end termination equipment. the bigger cans are a couple hundred bucks.
keep in mind when you go this route it really increases your real-estate needs at the head end, since you are effectively quadrupling the number of wires coming in.
we rarely run fibre in homes, but we recently saw a custom home built for a consular application that had 100% fibre to the endpoint construction for all communications and surveillance circuits. this was for eavesdropping protection.
local ahj's are split on plenum cable in t-bar, but that is another subject. we almost never see it in homes. some municipalities are fine with riser in t-bar.
certified jobs are, of course rare on the residential side, but that is more expensive as well.
that link to the on-q pdf worked fine for me. no idea what happened there...
james
hbiss restates many of the reasons wireless networking is so popular in finished homes. the cost and bother of running cabling is way out of proportion to what a wireless lan [mostly plug-in parts] costs. my wireless router was about $25US and the pcmcia card for my notebook was only $45US.
************awwt, thanks for your reply.
i sometimes need to read the board more carefully. when i suggested $100-200 was on the high side, i was thinking one cat5e drop or even a cat5e + cat3 tel. truthfully, when we install our preferred configuration, 2 x rg6 + 2 x cat5e, we are charging residential clients $120 US plus the cost of the head end termination equipment. the bigger cans are a couple hundred bucks.
keep in mind when you go this route it really increases your real-estate needs at the head end, since you are effectively quadrupling the number of wires coming in.
we rarely run fibre in homes, but we recently saw a custom home built for a consular application that had 100% fibre to the endpoint construction for all communications and surveillance circuits. this was for eavesdropping protection.
local ahj's are split on plenum cable in t-bar, but that is another subject. we almost never see it in homes. some municipalities are fine with riser in t-bar.
certified jobs are, of course rare on the residential side, but that is more expensive as well.
that link to the on-q pdf worked fine for me. no idea what happened there...
james
- Status