bidding residential rewires

[codeunderstanding]

How do some of you bid on a code commpliance residential building. Perticular old ones more in the late 1800s or early 1900s. This would not be like a bath remodel or a kitchen where you could get a count on items that you know what your going to install and could put a unit price to each item. This would be fixing dangerous wiring.

up dating circuit directory
checking breakers for the right size wires on them
provide bonding around meter
providing grounding conductors to non grounding receptacles and light fixtures
Put knock out seals in un used openings in boxes
tighten loose switches and receptacles
replace non gfi receptacles in bathrooms to gfcis
secure loose and dangling boxes and conduit to walls
putting open air splices into boxes

These are some of the items that would need to be bidded on where the customer does not want a T@M job

 

[DanZ]

It might be easier and cheaper to redo the whole thing. At least by the time you're finished. You might want to take a really close look at everything, and try to get a rough estimate for that, then price tearing it all out an redoing it from scratch, where you can guarantee that everything will be code compliant.

 

[al hildenbrand]

How do some of you bid on a code compliance residential building.

Code compliance has a peculiar and particular meaning, as it essentially doesn't refer to the current National Electrical Code in effect for new construction.

In the Metro Area I work in, there are several jurisdictions that have their own ordinances that spell out what changes, if any, have to occur on an existing building's Premises Wiring (System) to obtain a "code compliance". If this, so-called, minimum maintenance code, calls out, say, that there must be a "grounded duplex receptacle" in the bathroom, and there is only a two wire ungrounded single receptacle in a porcelain bodied vanity wall sconce, then a duplex must be added.

Here, a domino falls.

The added duplex receptacle in the bath is new construction, therefore it must comply with the NEC in effect now.

If the existing service is an original 30 Amp 120/240 Volt fuse center, another domino tends to fall, as, at least in my area, such a fuse center is defined as overloaded and nothing can be added to it. To add the bath circuit, a new service must be installed.

There may be additional language in the minimum maintenance code that tells when the 20 Amp bath circuit may be waived. . .maybe not. It's a local thing.

In my area, grounding of existing two wire receptacles is only on a case by case basis, around the kitchen, unfinished basement, garage and bath. . .the remainder are allowed to continue in service as two wire ungrounded receptacles with only occasional exception.

Open air splices, assuming, from your description of late 1800 - early 1900, that you are referring to Knob and Tube, just need to be supported correctly and done with approved splicing means.

There is generally a formula to determine the number of "outlets" in a room, based upon the square footage of the floor, and possibly an exception that permits a lighting outlet controlled by a remote switch to count as one outlet. If an outlet must be added, the AFCI domino falls, as appropriate to the NEC in effect.

Smoke detection, whether wired-battery backup, or battery or a combination of the two, also sneaks in through (at least in my area) the building code requirements.

Anyhow, the bidding of the resi rewire with the intent to do the minimum required to satisfy the regulations, locally in play, to get a Code Compliance, is a curious art form that leaves little room for "what I feel is a better install."

 

[DanZ]

Code compliance has a peculiar and particular meaning

Unless they're updating or remodeling the house. Then they would have to bring it up to current AHJ accepted code.

K&T I just thought of that...don't you have to abandon old K&T if you're going to do anything with it? Or is that one of those common misconceptions? I seem to remember someone mentioning that, but it may have been a local thing.

It might be a good idea (I know, I'm starting to sound like a corrupted MP3 file) to talk to the AHJ to see what would be required. Don't forget to get citations for anything that sounds odd, and don't be afraid to bring up exceptions or sections of code, but you might save yourself some headaches this way.

 

[al hildenbrand]

don't you have to abandon old K&T if you're going to do anything with it?

Not in my area.

There's a lot of it still doing a great job of "being in service".

I will, upon occasion, break an existing K&T branch circuit in two, when it is covering too much area. One can determine that a 15 Amp 120 Volt circuit should supply no more than 600 square feet (220.12) and, in that big, old turn of the 20th century victorian, sometimes the entire second floor is on one circuit.

 

[480sparky]

Call your mechanic and ask him how much it will cost to fix your truck. The first thing he'll ask is what's wrong with it. He can't give you a price until he knows the starter's bad. Otherwise, you won't get a price.

Rewires like this are exactly the same. Unless you want to spend half a day pulling devices out, testing half the circuits, checking for grounds, etc., there's no way to get an accurate bid. And who knows what horrors you'll find once you do really crack into the job.

If you're asked for a price, charge your going rate for the time it takes you to provide the price to the customer. That will weed out a lot of tire-cickers and bid shoppers.

If nothing else, provide a T&M price with a "Not To Exceed" price that will cover any eventuality you may find. Yea, I know, the customer doesn't want a T&M price, but you're under no obligation to give him a price set in stone.

 

[Sparky555]

The old wiring and devices have served their purpose for far too long. It was outdated with the introduction of THHN insulation and grounding 50 years ago. I'd disconnect the old wiring & rewire to current code with unit pricing.

Dave

 

[codeunderstanding]

The old wiring and devices have served their purpose for far too long. It was outdated with the introduction of THHN insulation and grounding 50 years ago. I'd disconnect the old wiring & rewire to current code with unit pricing.

Dave

This house was a single family dwelling that was converted to a 10 unit apartment. The wiring has been added on here and there with all kinds of different wiring methods. There would be alot to be repaired with this house and they dont want to gut any of the walls. Lot of things to cover on pricing this one.

 

[BryanMD]

This house was a single family dwelling that was converted to a 10 unit apartment. The wiring has been added on here and there with all kinds of different wiring methods. There would be alot to be repaired with this house and they dont want to gut any of the walls. Lot of things to cover on pricing this one.

You can't always get what you want
You can't always get what you want
You can't always get what you want
But if you try sometimes you just might find
You just might find
You get what you need

 

[mdshunk]

I do these sorts of jobs all the time. The scope of work I shoot for is:

• service upgrade
• new circuit to bath and GFCI rec
• 2 new circuits to kitchen and GFCI's
• new 4-wire to stove, if any
• new 4-wire to dryer, if any
• add electric water heater disconnect, if required
• replace all switches
• replace all receptacles with 2-prong or 3-prong, whichever is req'd.
• Add at least one receptacle in rooms that only presently have one receptacle.
• Add wall switch for any rooms that only have pull-chain operated lights.
• Add wall switch and ceiling light for any rooms without switch controlled lighting.
• add proper fan support for any existing paddle fans
• add vent fan in any bathrooms that lack a window and bath fan

The reason I shoot for this scope of work is because it will bring the property up to par with the International Property Maintenance Code and the International Existing Building Code nicely. If they want less work done, that's fine with me, but the above is what I shoot for if a total rewire is immediately out of the question.

 

[Rewire]

I do these sorts of jobs all the time. The scope of work I shoot for is:

• service upgrade
• new circuit to bath and GFCI rec
• 2 new circuits to kitchen and GFCI's
• new 4-wire to stove, if any
• new 4-wire to dryer, if any
• add electric water heater disconnect, if required
• replace all switches
• replace all receptacles with 2-prong or 3-prong, whichever is req'd.
• Add at least one receptacle in rooms that only presently have one receptacle.
• Add wall switch for any rooms that only have pull-chain operated lights.
• Add wall switch and ceiling light for any rooms without switch controlled lighting.
• add proper fan support for any existing paddle fans
• add vent fan in any bathrooms that lack a window and bath fan

The reason I shoot for this scope of work is because it will bring the property up to par with the International Property Maintenance Code and the International Existing Building Code nicely. If they want less work done, that's fine with me, but the above is what I shoot for if a total rewire is immediately out of the question.

I add ground water pipe

 

[mdshunk]

I add ground water pipe

I catch that with the service upgrade. They won't pass me if I don't.

 

[cadpoint]

Out of the park, the Man is hotter than mustard ...

File, Save As...

Marc it is just refreshing to read your work, Thank You!

 

[mdshunk]

Almost forgot... if it seems like they're gonna want to use window air conditioners, I try to get them to let me put a dedicated circuit to an "air conditioner receptacle". At least one on each floor.