Copper vs Alumnium Feeders

[DPMin]

We're bidding on commercial project which needs new feeders run 300 feet from a panel at the utility pole to a new panel (600A, 208V 3-phase). The engineer, not surprisingly, spec'ed copper feeders - we suggested the customer consider aluminum feeders to save money. I'd like to show the customer some data or other technical information supporting the use of aluminum. Has anyone come across any information that would be helpful?
(if you think we should stick with copper I'm open to hearing those arguments also!)

Thanks!

 

[LEO2854]

We're bidding on commercial project which needs new feeders run 300 feet from a panel at the utility pole to a new panel (600A, 208V 3-phase). The engineer, not surprisingly, spec'ed copper feeders - we suggested the customer consider aluminum feeders to save money. I'd like to show the customer some data or other technical information supporting the use of aluminum. Has anyone come across any information that would be helpful?
(if you think we should stick with copper I'm open to hearing those arguments also!)

Thanks!

There is nothing wrong with aluminum wire that said I would still go with copper because there is more profit=higher mark up...:thumbsup:

 

[Cow]

What kind of data do you need other than price? Once you tell them it's roughly 1/3 the cost of copper they won't care about the rest.....

 

[MarkyMarkNC]

Try to find out who your local sales rep is for Alcan or any of the other aluminum wiring manufacturers. They should have all the information you need to make your case. Your supply house sales guy can probably get you contact information and point you in the right direction.

 

[Gac66610]

Just a thought .... if by using AL instead of CU would this by chance change conduit size, most situations probably not, if it did would the savings for AL offset the cost of conduit

 

[stew]

With copper nearly 4 times the price of al the increased conduit size is inconsequential in comparison. That being said If the customer is willing to pay then you will make a ton more money using what is specified. would you rather make 25% say on 1.00 or 25% on 4.00? Seems like a no brainer to me. Dont be a hero and go ahaead and make yourself some money!!LOL

 

[satcom]

One way to look at the issue is the utilities use AL up to the entrance point, so what advantage do you have changing to copper?

 

[John120/240]

Around here we have one city that requires copper conductors downstream from the load

side of the meter. They have to justify the cost of their homes. Many in the million dollar

plus range. Yes the POCO using aluminum conductors issue has been brought up with no

reasonable conclusion.

 

[cdslotz]

There is nothing wrong with aluminum wire that said I would still go with copper because there is more profit=higher mark up...

I'll offer Aluminum all day long. Save the owner $100K and I pocket $30K

What kind of data do you need other than price? Once you tell them it's roughly 1/3 the cost of copper they won't care about the rest.....

Yep!

Try to find out who your local sales rep is for Alcan or any of the other aluminum wiring manufacturers. They should have all the information you need to make your case. Your supply house sales guy can probably get you contact information and point you in the right direction.

Why do you need the supply house? Every thing you need is right here:

http://www.cable.alcan.com/cablepublic/en-US/

 

[ksmith846]

We're bidding on commercial project which needs new feeders run 300 feet from a panel at the utility pole to a new panel (600A, 208V 3-phase). The engineer, not surprisingly, spec'ed copper feeders - we suggested the customer consider aluminum feeders to save money. I'd like to show the customer some data or other technical information supporting the use of aluminum. Has anyone come across any information that would be helpful?
(if you think we should stick with copper I'm open to hearing those arguments also!)

Thanks!

I would bid the job with copper with minor markups to make sure I have a shot at being awarded the job. Once the contract is signed then I would offer the compact aluminum option to the owner as a cost savings. Then only give them back half of the savings as they only care that they are saving money on their budgeted cost. Now I am making money on that wire.

I would never offer the option during the bid process as you run the risk of the owner asking all bidders to quote with aluminum. Someone will then quote it at the proper cost with minor markups and you lose the project and your money making options.

 

[ron]

Many inspectors require no-ox on the end of the freshly stripped conductor insulation. You need to be sure what ever you are going to terminate in, has AL compatible lugs.

 

[Rick Christopherson]

There is nothing wrong with aluminum wire that said I would still go with copper because there is more profit=higher mark up...:thumbsup:

....And you say this with "pride"? I wonder how your customers would feel if they knew your primary business ethic was to get as much money as possible from them? No, don't try to hide behind what the plans called for, because that is not what you just said above. There are classes in business ethics, and I think you need to take one. :thumbsdown:

 

[satcom]

....And you say this with "pride"? I wonder how your customers would feel if they knew your primary business ethic was to get as much money as possible from them? No, don't try to hide behind what the plans called for, because that is not what you just said above. There are classes in business ethics, and I think you need to take one. :thumbsdown:

I sounds like Leo is pricing on the curve where the AL Market has indexed the prices leaving a nice spread in the pricing on AL, go get em! Leo before the curve changes.

 

[DPMin]

Eaton White Paper

Eaton White Paper

In case any one is interested, I found this white paper written by an engineer at Eaton which compares copper and aluminum for use in electrical systems. Its a good read:

http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@electrical/documents/content/1143077762513.pdf

 

[kwired]

....And you say this with "pride"? I wonder how your customers would feel if they knew your primary business ethic was to get as much money as possible from them? No, don't try to hide behind what the plans called for, because that is not what you just said above. There are classes in business ethics, and I think you need to take one. :thumbsdown:

How long do you think he will be in business if his primary business ethic was to do installations as low priced as possible?

Business is business, profits and losses drive most decisions.

How many business ads do you read or hear advertising for (some on a fairly regular basis) where they are selling things at "rock bottom prices", "60, 70, even 80 percent off"? How can they afford to have that many sales of this magnitude as often as they do unless they are making a killing on the "regular prices"? Seasonal items is understanable that they want to liquidate what is left to make room for the next seasonal item, but furniture and appliance stores do this all the time and not much of what they sell is seasonal.

 

[Rick Christopherson]

How long do you think he will be in business if his primary business ethic was to do installations as low priced as possible?

.....and then you complain that you can't get any customers. My previous posting was not talking about a low-ball bid that you just implied. It was talking about misinfroming a customer for the sole purpose of getting more of their money. If that is your chosen business ethic, then you go with that. But then don't ever complain that no one wants to hire you.

 

[petersonra]

We're bidding on commercial project which needs new feeders run 300 feet from a panel at the utility pole to a new panel (600A, 208V 3-phase). The engineer, not surprisingly, spec'ed copper feeders - we suggested the customer consider aluminum feeders to save money. I'd like to show the customer some data or other technical information supporting the use of aluminum. Has anyone come across any information that would be helpful?
(if you think we should stick with copper I'm open to hearing those arguments also!)

Thanks!

I hate it when vendors decide they have a better idea. It may well be cheaper, and acceptable. However, IMO unless specifically asked vendors are not encouraged by me to do any value engineering.

One of the reasons I would spec copper feeders would be to squirrel away some money for the things I forgot or run across later.

IMO, this is between the engineer and the customer. the suggestion should be made to the engineer.

 

[kwired]

.....and then you complain that you can't get any customers. My previous posting was not talking about a low-ball bid that you just implied. It was talking about misinfroming a customer for the sole purpose of getting more of their money. If that is your chosen business ethic, then you go with that. But then don't ever complain that no one wants to hire you.

Low ball bid never crossed my mind when I posted that.

When did I complain that I can't get any customers?

I just about have more work to do than I can currently handle. Next winter it will probably slow down some, or maybe (hopefully) it doesn't. That has been the way it is here the past few years.

Misinforming customer is not exactly what is happening either. If I sell customer an item for a certain price that is my selling price. Installing aluminum and telling them it was copper is wrong, but I can sell them aluminum at any price I want to. If I used copper price in a bid but never mentioned any specification of copper, then I have a price and a choice. Maybe I used aluminum so I can make up for loss on something I underestimated.

If custopmer doesn't like my price they can use somebody else. Not like I have never shopped for something and turned down someone's offer on something.

I give a bid for total project how does customer know that I didn't mark my material up 1000% and charge no labor vs sell him material at or below cost and hit him hard on labor if total bid is same either way?

My wife is getting into photography - she needs to learn to charge people what the pro's do if she wants to be a pro.
Other professional brochures advertise large 30x40 wall portriats for $545.00. She can get that size developed for her for around $60.00. I know many people that would have a big fit if they found that out. The same people also know nothing about business. That is why they don't own or operate one.

 

[Rick Christopherson]

Misinforming customer is not exactly what is happening either.

First off, you resurected a quote from me from 2 months ago, so I have no idea what this thread is even about aside from your quote and response. However, based on these items, it is about misinforming a customer for the sake of profit. That's what my original posting was about. If you don't like that, then you shouldn't have quoted me. The original posting wasn't directed at you.

 

[Fulthrotl]

Many inspectors require no-ox on the end of the freshly stripped conductor insulation. You need to be sure what ever you are going to terminate in, has AL compatible lugs.

with copper the price it is, aluminum is what's happening in commercial feeders.

that being said, the ONLY way i'm pulling aluminum, is with a burndy hypress for terminations.

on BOTH ends. they make nice little finger lugs you can swage on the end of the cable that give you
a nice termination into the breaker. aluminum feeders under a setscrew isn't happening for me.
you can either tape it up with scotch 33, or use cold shrink, but that's a bit pricy.

was by mayday grounding today, looking at burndy stuff... the battery crimpers are quite nice, at $3,500.
i'd love to have enough big wire that the speed of termination would justify one of those, but that isn't
gonna happen.

they make a little one, model Y500CT-HS that's good to 600 MCM copper and 350 MCM aluminum...
about $1,200 without dies.... but by the time you end up with a set of dies for aluminum and copper,
you're in another $1,600 for dies....

anyone use one of these?

what i'd like is a 4 point dieless that goes to 600 mcm... i doubt i'll ever need above 600 MCM with the
work i normally end up doing, and the Y81KFT is a bit pricy.

anyway, for you guys who use hypress, what's your favorite flavor?