Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Circuit Breakers

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Circuit Breakers

    Hi,

    I'm a relatively new electrician in rural Ontario. I've been primarily buying my circuit breakers online from canadabreakers.ca and amazon.ca but I'd like to cut down my shipping costs.

    I'm curious if anyone has solved this problem by buying breakers in bulk and if so, what breakers are you commonly stock piling.

    Thanks,
    David

    #2
    Found these Interchangeable Breakers at a local hardware store - Ganahl Lumber.

    Don't know if they are available online.
    Click image for larger version

Name:	01.jpg
Views:	2
Size:	137.1 KB
ID:	2380102

    Click image for larger version

Name:	02.jpg
Views:	2
Size:	142.3 KB
ID:	2380103
    Roger Ramjet NoFixNoPay

    Comment


      #3
      Welcome 87davidrobinson

      To all: remember this is the new Canadian forum. The OP is also Canadian. Some answers from us guys in the States may not apply in Canada.
      If you aim at nothing, you will hit it every time!

      Comment


        #4
        Very interesting!
        Note that at the end of the impressive list of compatible panels, it notes that the installation is code compliant only if the panel specifically lists Connecticut Electric breakers (probably including specific type number) as compatible in the label on the panel.
        Among other things this means that those breakers cannot be used with panels that were built before CE started marketing the breakers nor with panels whose manufacturer did not bother to list CE breakers.
        A large portion of the "compatible" brand and model listings found on breaker panels are based on the fact that the identified breakers are in fact made by the panel manufacturer or a subsidiary or successor company and therefore it is in their commercial interest to so list them.

        I have no idea how a typical inspector would deal with them.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by GoldDigger View Post
          I have no idea how a typical inspector would deal with them.
          Eaton also did this with their Classified "CL" line, and I believe the Connecticut Electric "ICBQ" line must have qualified with NRTL's in similar fashion.

          Over half the 18 compatible Brands listed on its package went away, got merged, or acquired long before "Connecticut Electric" made this model of interchangeable breaker. Never seen older & obsolete load-centers include "Connecticut Electric" in their labeling, and don't believe its required.
          Roger Ramjet NoFixNoPay

          Comment


            #6
            Welcome to The Forum.

            To reduce inventory, you are going to want to buy breakers that you would normally add or replace. This can vary dramatically depending on the local area... Only your experience will tell you what you need to normally stock.

            I would not use those CE Breakers if I could help it. I do not do enough volume of work to buy in bulk.

            Normally, if I need an odd ball breaker, it will be ordered at the same time as the rest of the materials for the job, and shipping cost is absorbed into the entire order, not just a breaker or two.

            If you are paying high shipping cost due to location or time constraints, and shipping is the majority of the cost, you can always throw in a couple of other breakers on that order that you *might* need for another project or customer.

            Most of my breaker inventory is from panel changes where I order a few extra breakers and do not use them.

            I stock just Square D homeline, GE, and CH BR Breakers, from 15 to 60 amp. Stocking just one AFCI, GFCI, and CAFCI Breakers in 15 and 20 amp varieties in those 3 manufacturers would be $400 of inventory that will probably get beaten to death in the truck before they're ever used.

            I also keep a few fused and non fused 60A disconnects, fuses, and at times both 50 and 60 amp 2 pole GFCI breakers with enclosure for spas.

            All of the odd ball and obsolete stuff like zinsco and FPE, that's when those CE breakers come into play. I do not carry any of this around, for I can count on one hand the number of times I've needed to change or add a breaker in these manufacturer of panels.
            Electricians do it until it Hertz!

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by GoldDigger View Post
              Very interesting!
              Note that at the end of the impressive list of compatible panels, it notes that the installation is code compliant only if the panel specifically lists Connecticut Electric breakers (probably including specific type number) as compatible in the label on the panel.
              Among other things this means that those breakers cannot be used with panels that were built before CE started marketing the breakers nor with panels whose manufacturer did not bother to list CE breakers.
              A large portion of the "compatible" brand and model listings found on breaker panels are based on the fact that the identified breakers are in fact made by the panel manufacturer or a subsidiary or successor company and therefore it is in their commercial interest to so list them.

              I have no idea how a typical inspector would deal with them.
              CE Tech support confirmed this is a repackaged Siemens product, which explains a few brands acquired by Siemens, but other brands were acquired by Eaton. Tech support also confirmed Siemens must appear on load-center labels where this "Interchangeable" breakers is used, and the product has not been Classified or UL tested with any brands except perhaps Siemens.

              What use is it, if panel label must include Siemens? How many of those old Brands would say Siemens on them?
              Roger Ramjet NoFixNoPay

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by ramsy View Post
                What use is it, if panel label must include Siemens? How many of those old Brands would say Siemens on them?
                I would look for the breaker type to appear on the label, like finding BR without finding Eaton.
                Master Electrician
                Electrical Contractor
                Richmond, VA

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by JFletcher View Post
                  Welcome to The Forum.

                  To reduce inventory, you are going to want to buy breakers that you would normally add or replace. This can vary dramatically depending on the local area... Only your experience will tell you what you need to normally stock.

                  I would not use those CE Breakers if I could help it. I do not do enough volume of work to buy in bulk.

                  Normally, if I need an odd ball breaker, it will be ordered at the same time as the rest of the materials for the job, and shipping cost is absorbed into the entire order, not just a breaker or two.

                  If you are paying high shipping cost due to location or time constraints, and shipping is the majority of the cost, you can always throw in a couple of other breakers on that order that you *might* need for another project or customer.

                  Most of my breaker inventory is from panel changes where I order a few extra breakers and do not use them.

                  I stock just Square D homeline, GE, and CH BR Breakers, from 15 to 60 amp. Stocking just one AFCI, GFCI, and CAFCI Breakers in 15 and 20 amp varieties in those 3 manufacturers would be $400 of inventory that will probably get beaten to death in the truck before they're ever used.

                  I also keep a few fused and non fused 60A disconnects, fuses, and at times both 50 and 60 amp 2 pole GFCI breakers with enclosure for spas.

                  All of the odd ball and obsolete stuff like zinsco and FPE, that's when those CE breakers come into play. I do not carry any of this around, for I can count on one hand the number of times I've needed to change or add a breaker in these manufacturer of panels.
                  Thanks, that's very helpful!

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by ramsy View Post
                    Found these Interchangeable Breakers at a local hardware store - Ganahl Lumber.

                    Don't know if they are available online.
                    [ATTACH=CONFIG]21769[/ATTACH]

                    [ATTACH=CONFIG]21770[/ATTACH]
                    Ever since Connecticut Electric offered that Siemens breaker like that inspectors will accept any Siemens full size as a 'classified' interchangeable breaker. One of our guys keeps that exact package in his truck unopened for any an inspector whom asks to see it. I believe they do not include SQD homeline in the list. Watch out for duplex / triplex and quad breakers though they often have to be an exact match with the panel.
                    Comments based on 2017 NEC unless otherwise noted.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by tortuga View Post
                      Ever since Connecticut Electric offered that Siemens breaker like that inspectors will accept any Siemens full size as a 'classified' interchangeable breaker..
                      Inspectors may get away with murder, but neither Siemens nor CE classified this mechanical fit for any Type BR listing, not with UL or any NRTL.

                      If Property Insurance inspectors identify the listing violation during a claim investigation, Fire Hazards are not insurable, and NFPA-70 has adopted insurance inspectors as AHJ's for investigating property claims for such violations.

                      Insurance attorneys are full-time employee experts. The litigation costs of fighting expert witnesses arguing about fire-code violations, often result in out-of-court settlements for peanuts. The question is, what will Insurance forensics find first. If smokes / batteries are dead or missing, then case closed. Claim denied, nothing further needed.

                      Listing violations are just another cause for property insurance to settle for peanuts, harm your client, who can point the finger at you.

                      This "Interchangeable" product seems to be another case of Cavet Emptor or Buyer Beware.
                      CE & Siemens would be found harmless, since "Interchangeable" is not regulated language, unlike "Classified" that requires testing for listings.

                      Other cause for denying claim:
                      Permit violations, 100A service conductors on new 200A equipment, or missing AFCI's, case closed, claim denied.
                      Permit violations at Kitchen / bath / lighting remodels / sun room addition; case closed, claim denied.
                      Fuse box found with moisture intrusion, evident corrosion, insect nests, dirt & debris, or if breakers fail to reset, or indicate on/off, then Claim denied, nothing further needed.
                      Last edited by ramsy; 12-15-18, 09:03 PM.
                      Roger Ramjet NoFixNoPay

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by ramsy View Post
                        Found these Interchangeable Breakers at a local hardware store - Ganahl Lumber.

                        Don't know if they are available online.
                        [ATTACH=CONFIG]21769[/ATTACH]

                        [ATTACH=CONFIG]21770[/ATTACH]
                        Those are not Listed for Canada we must be careful of what the USA has for their use
                        " DON'T use low prices as your selling advantage. The advantage disappears the moment someone dumber than you offers a lower price "
                        Doug

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by electricguy View Post
                          Those are not Listed for Canada we must be careful of what the USA has for their use
                          Look Carefully at image labels on breaker. I see both "CSA" and "UL" labels.
                          Click image for larger version

Name:	Full.jpg
Views:	2
Size:	136.8 KB
ID:	2380237
                          If "CSA" is not Canada, I believe "UL" is internationally adopted, and the exclusive NRTL in the UK.

                          Just like China, the USA may export products with unregulated language, not legally miss-labeled, or counterfeit products. If it gets thru other State's customs, then its "Caveat Emptor" for Canada's consumers, and a free lunch for their property insurance industry who can also deny associated claims.
                          Roger Ramjet NoFixNoPay

                          Comment


                            #14
                            I went to their site and just saw the UL listing a ul listing here has to be cUL I will have to check the CSA site to see if they have a CSA mark the reason is other UBI breakers are not approved for use in Canada
                            I just have not come up with a knock off breaker approved for here
                            " DON'T use low prices as your selling advantage. The advantage disappears the moment someone dumber than you offers a lower price "
                            Doug

                            Comment

                            Working...
                            X