THE PHYSICS OF... POWER

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Phil Corso

Senior Member
THE PHYSICS of… POWER
Introduction
A number of posts related to electrical power generation contain misunderstood concepts, expressions, and definitions as related to generated power. My goal, for those members of this forum (especially newbies) that choose to accept, is to provide some enlightenment, without malice, without scorn, without prejudice! And, for those who don’t accept my goal, so be it! Who cares as long as you’re happy!
Background.
Non-electrical engineers and some technicians are caught on the horns of a dilemma! In physics class they are/were taught that power is defined as the rate of doing work. Since work is defined as force x distance, then power = force times distance divided by time. In other words power is something tangible, something measurable, and something useful. For example: Hp; BTU/minute; lb(f)-ft per second; kg(f)-m per second; Watts; etc. The dilemma is that when talking about synchronous generators conflicting terms have arisen. First, there is apparent-power referred to as Volt-Amperes (VA). Second, there is active-power called Watts (W). And last, there is reactive-power called Volt-Amps-reactive (VAr) Confusion arises because neither the first expression VA, nor the third VAr, meets the physics definition of power!
History (at least how I remember it.)
In the early days of DC power generation it was easy to determine power - simply the product of Volts and Amps. Then, AC power brought became the rage. With it terms like inductive-reactance, capacitive-reactance, amperes-in, amperes-out, lagging-current, leading-current, and power-factor! All of which muddied the waters of understanding. Non-electrical engineers struggled (some EEs still do!) Eventually, as generators were inter-connected to form networks it was realized that system improvement could be effected by manipulating a generator’s excitation so that some of the networks’ lagging-current could be negated! Ah-ha, said the bean counters, “Perhaps we can sell power-factor improvement!” Still understanding faltered! This led to the adoption of the expression, Watt-less power. Now, a generating company could sell both Watts and Watt-less power! (Of course, only those-in-the-know, knew the latter was an oxy-moron!) Just imagine the confusion when the un-initiated were told, “Although Watt-less, it still causes losses!” Eventually, the latter term morphed into the adumbrated entity called reactive-power! It was alive! It could even be measured by instruments! More importantly, it eliminated “loss-talk!” But, more importantly, if measurable it could be priced, and then sold!
Apparent-power, Active-power, and Reactive-power Relationship.
What then, is the difference between apparent-, active-, and reactive-power? Of course, most of you with a mathematical bent understand that voltage and current waves are sinusoidal in form, having like-frequencies but unlike-amplitudes. The use of vectors (those bothered by the term can use the newer term, phasors) was introduced to explain it. It is nothing more than a mathematical-artifice representing the time-relationship between corresponding points on the voltage and current waves, as follows:
S, Apparent power = |V| x |A|.
W, Active-power = |V| x |A| x Cos(ø)
Ø, Time-offset between V & I, the power-factor angle (in deg.).
VAr, Reactive-pwr = |V| x |A| x Sin (ø).
The Closing.
I believe the problem many forum engineers, technicians, and others have is one of semantics! The Watt-less term applies only to the reactive-element, i.e., inductor or capacitor in the circuit, not the source or supply. Also, for purposes of simplicity let’s ignore non-linear loads. The following paragraph is the introduction to the “Armature Reaction” white paper I presented in Jan’07 (available on request). It lists terms or phrases used to describe “Reactive-Power” as well as my "hapless" goal to curtail use of inconsistent phrases:
THE PHYSICS of… ARMATURE REACTION
Adjectives describing Reactive-Power are plentiful, some even inventive, but most miss the point! There are some pairs culled from A-List and Off-List responses: adds-subtracts; additive-subtractive; absorbs-produces; augments-negates; crowds-expands; decreases-increases; flows-in; flows-out; overcomes-replaces; overtakes-fights; magnetizes-demagnetizes; supports-opposes; strengthens-weakens; and swells-shrinks. There have been and certainly will be others! Thus far, no-one has used adjectives such as: encourage; discourage; thwart; or tweak! I hope this paper will curtail (hmm, a synonym I hadn’t thought of earlier) the seemingly growing list of adjectives.”
FINAL POINT
My final point is this - call the “various powers” whatever you want to if it works for you! But, always remember that a generator supplies only two electrical quantities, Volts and Amperes! Whether a generator’s current is resistive, reactive, or some combination of the two, is determined by the phase-displacement of the generator’s line-current relative to the generator’s terminal-voltage. Just remember it’s the story of the “bear and the wall” all over again!

BTW, interested in a one paragraph explanation of PF?

Regards, Phil Corso
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
THE PHYSICS of… POWER
Introduction
A number of posts related to electrical power generation contain misunderstood concepts, expressions, and definitions as related to generated power. My goal, for those members of this forum (especially newbies) that choose to accept, is to provide some enlightenment, without malice, without scorn, without prejudice! And, for those who don’t accept my goal, so be it! Who cares as long as you’re happy!
Background.
Non-electrical engineers and some technicians are caught on the horns of a dilemma! In physics class they are/were taught that power is defined as the rate of doing work. Since work is defined as force x distance, then power = force times distance divided by time. In other words power is something tangible, something measurable, and something useful. For example: Hp; BTU/minute; lb(f)-ft per second; kg(f)-m per second; Watts; etc. The dilemma is that when talking about synchronous generators conflicting terms have arisen. First, there is apparent-power referred to as Volt-Amperes (VA). Second, there is active-power called Watts (W). And last, there is reactive-power called Volt-Amps-reactive (VAr) Confusion arises because neither the first expression VA, nor the third VAr, meets the physics definition of power!
History (at least how I remember it.)
In the early days of DC power generation it was easy to determine power - simply the product of Volts and Amps. Then, AC power brought became the rage. With it terms like inductive-reactance, capacitive-reactance, amperes-in, amperes-out, lagging-current, leading-current, and power-factor! All of which muddied the waters of understanding. Non-electrical engineers struggled (some EEs still do!) Eventually, as generators were inter-connected to form networks it was realized that system improvement could be effected by manipulating a generator’s excitation so that some of the networks’ lagging-current could be negated! Ah-ha, said the bean counters, “Perhaps we can sell power-factor improvement!” Still understanding faltered! This led to the adoption of the expression, Watt-less power. Now, a generating company could sell both Watts and Watt-less power! (Of course, only those-in-the-know, knew the latter was an oxy-moron!) Just imagine the confusion when the un-initiated were told, “Although Watt-less, it still causes losses!” Eventually, the latter term morphed into the adumbrated entity called reactive-power! It was alive! It could even be measured by instruments! More importantly, it eliminated “loss-talk!” But, more importantly, if measurable it could be priced, and then sold!
Apparent-power, Active-power, and Reactive-power Relationship.
What then, is the difference between apparent-, active-, and reactive-power? Of course, most of you with a mathematical bent understand that voltage and current waves are sinusoidal in form, having like-frequencies but unlike-amplitudes. The use of vectors (those bothered by the term can use the newer term, phasors) was introduced to explain it. It is nothing more than a mathematical-artifice representing the time-relationship between corresponding points on the voltage and current waves, as follows:
S, Apparent power = |V| x |A|.
W, Active-power = |V| x |A| x Cos(ø)
Ø, Time-offset between V & I, the power-factor angle (in deg.).
VAr, Reactive-pwr = |V| x |A| x Sin (ø).
The Closing.
I believe the problem many forum engineers, technicians, and others have is one of semantics! The Watt-less term applies only to the reactive-element, i.e., inductor or capacitor in the circuit, not the source or supply. Also, for purposes of simplicity let’s ignore non-linear loads. The following paragraph is the introduction to the “Armature Reaction” white paper I presented in Jan’07 (available on request). It lists terms or phrases used to describe “Reactive-Power” as well as my "hapless" goal to curtail use of inconsistent phrases:
THE PHYSICS of… ARMATURE REACTION
Adjectives describing Reactive-Power are plentiful, some even inventive, but most miss the point! There are some pairs culled from A-List and Off-List responses: adds-subtracts; additive-subtractive; absorbs-produces; augments-negates; crowds-expands; decreases-increases; flows-in; flows-out; overcomes-replaces; overtakes-fights; magnetizes-demagnetizes; supports-opposes; strengthens-weakens; and swells-shrinks. There have been and certainly will be others! Thus far, no-one has used adjectives such as: encourage; discourage; thwart; or tweak! I hope this paper will curtail (hmm, a synonym I hadn’t thought of earlier) the seemingly growing list of adjectives.”
FINAL POINT
My final point is this - call the “various powers” whatever you want to if it works for you! But, always remember that a generator supplies only two electrical quantities, Volts and Amperes! Whether a generator’s current is resistive, reactive, or some combination of the two, is determined by the phase-displacement of the generator’s line-current relative to the generator’s terminal-voltage. Just remember it’s the story of the “bear and the wall” all over again!

BTW, interested in a one paragraph explanation of PF?

Regards, Phil Corso
Power is power.
Apparent power isn't power.
It's as simple as that.
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
SmartA, BeeSoaker....

As expected from the two most apparent contributers to MHF!

Does this mean, then, you're not interested in my treatise on PF!

Phil

Was it about power factor??

And I don't soak bees. I prefer them battered and fried.

IMG_25151_zpsenp3rvvq.jpg
 

Ingenieur

Senior Member
Location
Earth
Total power S va
Active power P watts
reactive power Q var
the later are 2 forms of electrical power, the first the combination
 

Ingenieur

Senior Member
Location
Earth
....there are three types of "power":
Definitions
1. Apparent power, which is the product of rms (root mean square) voltsand rms amps. (VA, volt-amps)
2.
Real power, which is the time average of the instantaneous product ofvoltage and current.(Watts)
3.
Reactive power, which is the time average of the instantaneous productof the voltage and current, with current phase shifted 90 degrees. (VAR, volt-amps reactive)
 

__dan

Senior Member
Does anyone other than me find it scary that a Senior Member on this forum denies that VARs and VAs are forms of power? That was Sophomore year in school man.

This could be a pretty good thread, but is apparently going the path of ground up/down.

Power is the rate of doing work, measured in kW.

kVAR, in the instantaneous case, energy is stored losslessly in capacitive elements in the electric field and in inductive elements in the magnetic field. As indicated above kVA is the vector sum of kW and kVAR.

In the time averaged case case, energy stored in the inductive and capacitive elements is recovered losslessly on the next part cycle, so the net sum over one complete cycle is zero net work performed, so no power. This ignores the I^2R losses in the conductors due to the higher current flow for circuits with bad power factor. In fact that loss is work performed by conversion to heat, but is again measured in kW and not kVAr.

VARs are the storage of EM in the inductive and capacitive element but the net sum is zero in the average over one cycle. No work is performed (in the average case over time). Instantaneously, great and interesting work is done, but is recovered back into the system in the average case.

Crossing my fingers this could be a good thread.
 

adamscb

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
EE
This could be a pretty good thread, but is apparently going the path of ground up/down.

Power is the rate of doing work, measured in kW.

kVAR, in the instantaneous case, energy is stored losslessly in capacitive elements in the electric field and in inductive elements in the magnetic field. As indicated above kVA is the vector sum of kW and kVAR.

In the time averaged case case, energy stored in the inductive and capacitive elements is recovered losslessly on the next part cycle, so the net sum over one complete cycle is zero net work performed, so no power. This ignores the I^2R losses in the conductors due to the higher current flow for circuits with bad power factor. In fact that loss is work performed by conversion to heat, but is again measured in kW and not kVAr.

VARs are the storage of EM in the inductive and capacitive element but the net sum is zero in the average over one cycle. No work is performed (in the average case over time). Instantaneously, great and interesting work is done, but is recovered back into the system in the average case.

Crossing my fingers this could be a good thread.

Ok, so technically because VARs perform no work they are not technically considered 'power'. But why does it matter? We all know the equations and how to use them, so why does it matter if VARs are technically speaking considered units of 'power' or not? This is a useless argument, this whole thread is just an argument about semantics.
 

__dan

Senior Member
Ok, so technically because VARs perform no work they are not technically considered 'power'. But why does it matter? We all know the equations and how to use them, so why does it matter if VARs are technically speaking considered units of 'power' or not? This is a useless argument, this whole thread is just an argument about semantics.

It matters to the size of the engine driving the generator and its fuel consumption.

Another example is a UPS, typically kW rating = 80% of the kVA rating. A UPS rated 100 kVA is only rated for 80 kW. It is an 80 kW unit at 100% loading but has an allowance for bad power factor (the DC bus would be rated 80 kW but the output section could deliver that into some bad PF). It is not rated for 100 kW, that is a different machine, and would be overloaded at that point.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
This could be a pretty good thread, but is apparently going the path of ground up/down.

Power is the rate of doing work, measured in kW.

kVAR, in the instantaneous case, energy is stored losslessly in capacitive elements in the electric field and in inductive elements in the magnetic field. As indicated above kVA is the vector sum of kW and kVAR.

In the time averaged case case, energy stored in the inductive and capacitive elements is recovered losslessly on the next part cycle, so the net sum over one complete cycle is zero net work performed, so no power. This ignores the I^2R losses in the conductors due to the higher current flow for circuits with bad power factor. In fact that loss is work performed by conversion to heat, but is again measured in kW and not kVAr.

VARs are the storage of EM in the inductive and capacitive element but the net sum is zero in the average over one cycle. No work is performed (in the average case over time). Instantaneously, great and interesting work is done, but is recovered back into the system in the average case.

Crossing my fingers this could be a good thread.


A quibble or two and some additional comments.

The energy transferred in the form of "reactive power" is positive over one quarter cycle. Which one depends on whether the dominant reactance is capacitive or inductive. The following quarter cycle is then negative, so the energy flow balances to zero over each half cycle.
You can also have a resonant parallel or series circuit in which the energy moves back and forth between the capacitor and the inductor with zero losses in the limiting case of ideal components and lossless wiring.

The discussion of power based on energy flow that nets out to zero gets a little weird and contributes to the opinion that what is being described by kVAR is not really power in the classic sense. The biggest problem is that kVAR assigns a "power" value for repetitive cycles to an energy flow that nets to zero over each half (and therefore each full) cycle.

The fact that treating kVAR as a power component with the property that when you add it vectorially at right angles to the resistive power lets you calculate the RMS amperes actually measured over a full cycle makes it a useful parameter. In my opinion a useful fiction, just as centrifugal force makes the math easier for some people to understand and work with than calculating the required centripetal acceleration.
 

adamscb

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
EE
It matters to the size of the engine driving the generator and its fuel consumption.

Another example is a UPS, typically kW rating = 80% of the kVA rating. A UPS rated 100 kVA is only rated for 80 kW. It is an 80 kW unit at 100% loading but has an allowance for bad power factor (the DC bus would be rated 80 kW but the output section could deliver that into some bad PF). It is not rated for 100 kW, that is a different machine, and would be overloaded at that point.

You don't have to take me back to school. Almost everyone on this forum (I hope) knows the difference between kW and kVA; that's not what this argument is about. This argument is about if you can truly call VARS 'power' because they don't do real work. VAR's are often called 'reactive' or 'imaginary' power, but people are arguing if you can call it power at all.

The difference between kW and kVA is important, as you noted in your post, and I completely agree. But the (stupid) argument going on here is purely about semantics.
 

__dan

Senior Member
You don't have to take me back to school. Almost everyone on this forum (I hope) knows the difference between kW and kVA; that's not what this argument is about. This argument is about if you can truly call VARS 'power' because they don't do real work. VAR's are often called 'reactive' or 'imaginary' power, but people are arguing if you can call it power at all.

The difference between kW and kVA is important, as you noted in your post, and I completely agree. But the (stupid) argument going on here is purely about semantics.

Sorry about the tone, it was not intended nor did I see it. It is interesting to me, the physical effect of what is happening.

As a test question if I asked for an explanation of the difference between kVA and kW, the ratio cos( phi ) is not what interests me. I would be blown away by someone who could give a description of the underlying physical effect, an understanding of the physical reality on which the math may then be applied.

As you can see, if you have an "Emerson 1000" UPS, it says in 4" tall letters it's rated 1000 kVA continuous. Very few will look at the fine print on the nameplate or the specs and see it clearly says 1000 kVA, 800 kW. From that pool a cut is made of those who know the truth, exactly mathematically, how to calculate (or read) the rated load carrying capacity. It is a 1000 model for competitive marketing purposes.
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
Does anyone other than me find it scary that a Senior Member on this forum denies that VARs and VAs are forms of power? That was Sophomore year in school man.
VArs give you a measure for the reactive component hence the "r". VA gives you current rating so you can size current carrying capacity of components. Neither is a measure of power. I'm sorry if you find that scary.
 
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