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    #16
    3DFS patent

    USPTO [COLOR=#797979]patent number [/COLOR]9,178,354[COLOR=#797979], entitled “Multipurpose, Universal Converter With Battery Control and Real Time Power Factor Correction.” issued [/COLOR][COLOR=#797979]November 3, 2015[/COLOR]

    Originally posted by junkhound View Post
    How about a patent number to go to so one can assess the actual technology being promulgated ?

    Comment


      #17
      Engineers are my favorite groups to engage with

      Okay. This is fun.

      Your stable voltage with a UPS is simply vandalizing the battery.

      Yes, a distorted sinewave means that the flow of electricity is impeded in some manner. A distortion is a direct representation of electrical energy being converted to heat, vibration, etc. somewhere in the network.

      Most people do not understand how badly reactive power, power factor, harmonics, imbalanced phases affects their operations. You are a great example of this. You do not think the retransmission rates have anything to do with the electricity. From my perspective, that is laughable. Next thing you are going to tell me is that you measure electricity using RMS values. Then you would lose all credibility!

      If a motor is rated at 1200 RPM and it is fully loaded, does it remain at 1200RPM? No. Why is that? I am sure you have some reason, but let me tell you what is really happening. When SDE is installed in the network, power is delivered perfectly to that and every other motor operating in the network no matter the load factor. That results in a 1200 RPM motor remaining 1200 RPM whether it is loaded or not.



      Originally posted by zbang View Post
      Care to try again?


      Without a pump? We call them generators, most power stations have them. There are also a multitude of control systems, regulators, etc in the transmission system. These make for a rather stable system voltage. Check out things like the "Woodward turbine governor", they're rather neat devices.
      Current is simply what the load draws, so to control that, you need to control that device.
      I can also maintain a "stable" voltage quite easily with a UPS, but very few devices need that.
      Since the fundamental line frequency is quite stable, we can otherwise ignore that.


      Perhaps I could introduce you to the centrifugal pump, which, unlike a piston pump, doesn't "break" the stream of water.
      What is "better electricity functionality", anyway?




      Again, what is "choppy and uneven"? Last time I looked at a line, it was a slightly distorted sine wave. Hardly choppy. The peaks were about the same and zero crossings happened at the right time.



      Most people don't care about power factor unless it's egregiously lagging, and many customers don't pay a penalty fee no matter how bad it is. Likewise for harmonics, just not a problem for most customers



      So, the 60W lamp will consume less than 60W?
      How will the device last longer?



      How does an "asynchronous" motor (induction motor) operate at synchronous speed? Please explain the physics around that. Or, do you mean that induction motors operate with a near-unity power factor?



      Um, no. Not at all. Power quality is virtually never the cause of data errors or retransmission's unless the device's power supply can't keep up the DC levels needed by the transceivers.



      I don't see any "problems" described.
      AFAICT, a zero cost, too.

      Comment


        #18
        Originally posted by cdoerfler View Post
        USPTO [COLOR=#797979]patent number [/COLOR]9,178,354[COLOR=#797979], entitled “Multipurpose, Universal Converter With Battery Control and Real Time Power Factor Correction.” issued [/COLOR][COLOR=#797979]November 3, 2015[/COLOR]
        I am not surprised that the patent was issued, given the current execrable understanding of technology and obviousness in the Patent Office, but note that the issuance of a patent does not say anything about the practicality or economic benefit of a given device or technology.

        The two biggest problems that I see are:

        1. The power losses in any conversion mechanism are likely to be far higher than any losses caused by the poor waveforms it tries to correct. PFC compensation as delivered by a grid interactive renewable energy device is practical since it does not increase the losses already inherent in the interface.
        2. Anything that uses current battery technology for energy storage will cost more than non-storage options. Or supercapacitors for very short term storage. Batteries are by nature inefficient storage mechanisms and have a high periodic replacement cost. Power storage at the utility level requires a particular combination of high marginal power costs to make economic sense at this time.

        Comment


          #19
          Fantastic! Neither of those problems apply.

          The VectorQ2 as mentioned previously is limited by kVAR, but let's keep the power range to 30-50kW. To correct all of that power on the fly in real time require 120W. So you are right that they are likely, but that does not apply to us. Great comment though!

          There is not any battery technology or supercapacitor technology in this device. It is proprietary energy storage that is much more flexible than what you have mentioned.



          Originally posted by GoldDigger View Post
          I am not surprised that the patent was issued, given the current execrable understanding of technology and obviousness in the Patent Office, but note that the issuance of a patent does not say anything about the practicality or economic benefit of a given device or technology.

          The two biggest problems that I see are:

          1. The power losses in any conversion mechanism are likely to be far higher than any losses caused by the poor waveforms it tries to correct. PFC compensation as delivered by a grid interactive renewable energy device is practical since it does not increase the losses already inherent in the interface.
          2. Anything that uses current battery technology for energy storage will cost more than non-storage options. Or supercapacitors for very short term storage. Batteries are by nature inefficient storage mechanisms and have a high periodic replacement cost. Power storage at the utility level requires a particular combination of high marginal power costs to make economic sense at this time.

          Comment


            #20
            Originally posted by cdoerfler View Post
            The VectorQ2 as mentioned previously is limited by kVAR, but let's keep the power range to 30-50kW. To correct all of that power on the fly in real time require 120W. So you are right that they are likely, but that does not apply to us. Great comment though!

            There is not any battery technology or supercapacitor technology in this device. It is proprietary energy storage that is much more flexible than what you have mentioned.
            It in input and output interface for energy storage, and specifically mentions batteries in its claims. To the extent that it does not include any technology for the energy storage itself it is indeed flexible, but not necessarily either practical or non-obvious.
            Many of the claimed features for stored energy management are incorporated into currently available devices, including hybrid grid interactive inverters. Which makes the approval of those patent claims seem dubious to me.

            Comment


              #21
              You need a wider definition of energy storage

              Your mouth is a form of energy storage for your stomach.

              We are a computing solution in parallel working at the nano/micro level. Your manly understanding of lots of power is charming, but in reality, we only need to store energy for milliseconds, max. Because we are installed in parallel, we can charge our energy storage while we are correcting.



              Originally posted by GoldDigger View Post
              It in input and output interface for energy storage, and specifically mentions batteries in its claims. To the extent that it does not include any technology for the energy storage itself it is indeed flexible, but not necessarily either practical or non-obvious.
              Many of the claimed features for stored energy management are incorporated into currently available devices, including hybrid grid interactive inverters. Which makes the approval of those patent claims seem dubious to me.

              Comment


                #22
                What about the quantum level?

                Comment


                  #23
                  Everybody got jokes

                  I know you are being silly, but there are people who honestly want to learn about this and comments like that muddy the waters. This is a new concept for everybody. It comes with growing pains. I am eager to answer real questions and solve real problems. Damn near every problem that exists related to power quality and stability can be solved by just cleaning and balancing the electrical energy.

                  Originally posted by GoldDigger View Post
                  What about the quantum level?

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Dismissal of power factor and harmonics, what about phase balancing?

                    I cannot expect anybody who measures electricity with RMS values to understand the impact that harmonics and power factor really have on the electrical network as a whole.

                    If you measured your bank account by how often it declined, would that be considered accuracy?

                    Let's talk about phase balancing. Click image for larger version

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                    The benefit here is enormous, no?

                    Comment


                      #25
                      [COLOR=#222222]You enjoy engaging with engineers,do you? On behalf of the engineering community, I am flattered. But I have now read enough to be convinced that it is not worth our time and energy to engage in a discussion with you. Here is where you flat out failed:[/COLOR]
                      [COLOR=#222222]
                      Originally posted by cdoerfler View Post
                      If a motoris rated at 1200 RPM and it is fully loaded, does it remain at 1200RPM? No. Why is that? I am sure you have some reason, but let me tell you what is really happening.
                      I know perfectly well what is happening. The amount of torque that is imposed on the rotating component (i.e., the rotor) is directly related to the difference in the speed of rotation of the magnetic field surrounding the rotor (i.e., that field being generated within the stator) and the speed of rotation of the rotor itself. The field will rotate at exactly1200 RPM (it is not physically possible for it to be otherwise, so long as the power supplied to the motor remains at exactly 60 hertz). The rotor will rotate at a slightly slower rate. The difference is measured using the parameter “slip.” The greater the difference, the greater the slip, and the greater the torque that is imposed upon the rotor.[/COLOR]

                      [COLOR=#222222]
                      Originally posted by cdoerfler View Post
                      When SDE is installed in the network, power is delivered perfectly to that and every other motor operating in the network no matter the load factor. That results ina 1200 RPM motor remaining 1200 RPM whether it is loaded or not.
                      If the rotor is rotating at exactly the same speed as the rotating magnetic field (i.e., both at 1200 RPM), the slip will equal zero, and no torque will be imposed upon the rotor. Friction will cause the rotor to slow down, resulting in an increase in both slip and torque. This will continue until the amount of torque applied to the rotor matches the amount needed to drive the load.[/COLOR]


                      [COLOR=#000000]So now that I am certain that you are talking total nonsense, I will end my participation in this thread. [/COLOR]

                      [COLOR=#000000]NOTICE TO FORUM MEMBERS:[/COLOR]

                      [COLOR=#000000]As a Moderator of this forum, I have the ability to close this thread. I choose not to, in the interests of supporting the freedom of speech that we enjoy in this country. However, I recommend that we all stop posting comments. Let us drive this thread into oblivion by our non-participation, thereby demonstrating to cdoerfler that we collectively don’t believe a word he has posted. Let this be our motto:
                      Freedom of Speech Also Means Freedom to Choose Not to Speak.
                      [/COLOR]
                      Charles E. Beck, P.E., Seattle
                      Comments based on 2017 NEC unless otherwise noted.

                      Comment


                        #26
                        __________________________________________________ ____________________________
                        Many people are shocked when they discover I am not a good electrician...

                        I'm in California, ergo I am still stuck on the 2014 NEC... We'll get around to the 2017 code in around 2021.

                        Comment


                          #27
                          I Guess Popular Mechanics Due Diligence was just BS?

                          I do appreciate your knowledge of motors, but am not clear on how you would understand the effect of SDE on one? I assure you that we went through a decent due diligence with Popular Mechanics when they awarded us this but surely you must know more having never seen this in real life.

                          Thank you for being judicious enough to leave this open for others to review. I will not continue unless prompted.



                          Originally posted by charlie b View Post
                          [COLOR=#222222]You enjoy engaging with engineers,do you? On behalf of the engineering community, I am flattered. But I have now read enough to be convinced that it is not worth our time and energy to engage in a discussion with you. Here is where you flat out failed:[/COLOR]
                          [COLOR=#222222]I know perfectly well what is happening. The amount of torque that is imposed on the rotating component (i.e., the rotor) is directly related to the difference in the speed of rotation of the magnetic field surrounding the rotor (i.e., that field being generated within the stator) and the speed of rotation of the rotor itself. The field will rotate at exactly1200 RPM (it is not physically possible for it to be otherwise, so long as the power supplied to the motor remains at exactly 60 hertz). The rotor will rotate at a slightly slower rate. The difference is measured using the parameter “slip.” The greater the difference, the greater the slip, and the greater the torque that is imposed upon the rotor.[/COLOR]
                          [COLOR=#222222] If the rotor is rotating at exactly the same speed as the rotating magnetic field (i.e., both at 1200 RPM), the slip will equal zero, and no torque will be imposed upon the rotor. Friction will cause the rotor to slow down, resulting in an increase in both slip and torque. This will continue until the amount of torque applied to the rotor matches the amount needed to drive the load.[/COLOR]

                          [COLOR=#000000]So now that I am certain that you are talking total nonsense, I will end my participation in this thread. [/COLOR]

                          [COLOR=#000000]NOTICE TO FORUM MEMBERS:[/COLOR]

                          [COLOR=#000000]As a Moderator of this forum, I have the ability to close this thread. I choose not to, in the interests of supporting the freedom of speech that we enjoy in this country. However, I recommend that we all stop posting comments. Let us drive this thread into oblivion by our non-participation, thereby demonstrating to cdoerfler that we collectively don’t believe a word he has posted. Let this be our motto: [/COLOR]

                          Comment


                            #28
                            I must commend you charlie b

                            All of the people engineers and non, that have installed 3DFS into data centers, manufacturing and government facilities were much more extensive in their intellectual probing of our technology. Your ability to assess technology for which you have zero expertise over the internet without anything but having read a forum thread is remarkable.


                            Let's dissect your comment about the motor, "it is not physically possible for it to be otherwise, so long as the power supplied to the motor remains at exactly 60 hertz"


                            Square that with REALITY. Frequency control in microgrids is the number one problem and it never remains at 60Hz. Even grid power frequency fluctuates, so how does your comment shed any light on the solution that I am presenting? You just vomited a massive amount of knowledge of motors and then so egocentrically declared that as "proof" that everything I have said is a lie.


                            If you would bother to probe, you would learn that our technology provides much more capability that the antiqated methodology of frequency control. We offer precise phase control, which will obsolete frequency control as a solution to stability and control.


                            I broke my rule about not responding unless prompted, but I must admit that I was astonished that your lack of understanding of my technology combined with your knee jerk penchant of speaking absolutely for others, wrapped in an absurd banner of free speech is insanely juvenile and history will prove you to be a Luddite in this regard.


                            This will be my last post unless prompted and I feel a Henry Ford quote is appropriate, "If I had asked my customers what they wanted, they would have said a faster horse."

                            Comment


                              #29
                              I am closing this thread because your statement, "All of the people engineers and non, that have installed 3DFS into data centers, manufacturing and government facilities were much more extensive in their intellectual probing of our technology​." indicates it is essentially a sales pitch which is prohibited.
                              "Bob"
                              Robert B. Alexander, P.E.
                              Answers based on 2017 NEC unless otherwise noted.

                              Comment

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