3dfs - just hype ?

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junkhound

Senior Member
Location
Renton, WA
Occupation
EE, power electronics specialty
Received the query in quotes below from a co-worker.
Looked to me like a pile of hype for systems that have been in use for decades, just in a different box with a different name ?

"Have you heard of 3DFS? They have a new power management system that looks kind of interesting. See link."
https://3dfs.com/
 
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cdoerfler

Member
Location
Pittsboro, NC
Happy to answer questions regarding Software-Defined Electricity

Happy to answer questions regarding Software-Defined Electricity

I appreciate the inquiry. I can assure you that we are way more than hype although we are a different box with a different name, so I am unsure how to answer that.

The high level understanding is that we are a real time electrical energy balancing system. For electrical networks, automatically matching the electrical network impedance every microsecond so that electrical energy is perfectly consumed and not wasted as heat.

There is clearly a lot to our technology and I will be happy to address any questions. Thank you.

Received the query in quotes below from a co-worker.
Looked to me like a pile of hype for systems that have been in use for decades, just in a different box with a different name ?

"Have you heard of 3DFS? They have a new power management system that looks kind of interesting. See link."
https://3dfs.com/
 
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junkhound

Senior Member
Location
Renton, WA
Occupation
EE, power electronics specialty
Query one: What search engine do you use, sure found an online mention of your company quickly ?

2. How about some technical detail - your post was simply more unsubstantiated BS hype (save me from 'high level of technology' BS). For instance, a description of the algorithm and method of correcting lagging PF. I know, I know, proprietary, trade secret, etc. (as in: switch a capacitor on-line?)


Wow, Kudos to gold digger -- right on top of things deleting the troll advertisement that was attempted to be inserted.
 

cdoerfler

Member
Location
Pittsboro, NC
Technical Detail

Technical Detail

Okay, for technical detail, context is required. This is actually a computing solution, so it is not defined by the parameters that you are used to.

Nearly all of the technology that is involved with energy transfer in electrical networks is installed in series with the technology physically manipulating the electricity with capacitors, inductors, or transformers. These technologies use very little data and a lot of energy. We have taken a different approach, lots of data and very little energy.

Power factor, as you suggest is one parameter that needs to be addressed, but it is in conjunction with all of the other distortions as well. That one variable cannot be individually corrected with capacitors without creating a harmonic problem or some other problem exhibited in another way. Electrical energy flow must be corrected in it's entirety in a single action to ensure optimum flow. So the algorithm that you are seeking information on is for the real time correction of electrical energy flow in any environment. Yes it is a trade secret, but I can speak more to some of the technical aspects. Sincerely, this works best as a back and forth, particularly with such knowledgeable electrical engineers.

This is an input/output device installed in parallel. The input is data from our proprietary current transformers, the output is either an injection or extraction of current at the microsecond level on each phase independently through a fuse block. For the electrical theorists, the device is a dipole, using Kirchoff's Law. The device is limited by reactive power. A VectorQ2 for instance is for a 208/240V electrical panel and has a limit of slightly more than 9kVAR. It fits perfectly in a 200A panel and in general covers about 30kW of power consumption, however if there is very little reactive power compensation required we have seen it successfully correct greater than 50kW of power.

Let me stop here and let you direct the conversation.
 
I'm not clear on what problem this is trying to solve. Copper wires are excellent at conducting a "power flow" and this does not appear to be an in-line device anyway. Is it trying to "correct" a distorted sine wave (current or voltage)? Of so, why does that matter?

Ignoring any proprietary algorithms, how does this device interface to the user's distribution system and how does the user know it's actually doing anything useful?

(Sure, I'm skeptical about this sort of device.)
 

cdoerfler

Member
Location
Pittsboro, NC
What problem does this solve?

What problem does this solve?

Electrical networks today are zombie networks. There is no intelligent distribution. It is simply connect load with source using wires and electrons will travel. This electrical energy flow is the equivalent of having an irrigation system without pumps. Without pumps, you cannot maintain water pressure. Without 3DFS you cannot maintain stable or consistent voltage, or anything else.

So when I look at how to answer the question of "what problem does this solve?" I think about it from how water pumps improved irrigation. What does a water pump do? It breaks down a massive volume of water into bite sized chunks that can be managed so that the water flow and pressure remains constant. The same is true with Software-Defined Electricity ("SDE"). Our device breaks down the electricity into individual bite sized chunks that can be managed. It happens that these chunks are at microseconds and the results are better electricity functionality.

If you could put a microscope and look at the electricity flowing through the network without SDE, it is choppy and uneven. Capacitors, inductors and transformers do nothing to fix this.

When SDE is installed every parameter of the electricity in the electrical network is optimized every microsecond. That includes voltage, power factor, harmonics, etc. So under a microscope the electricity flow is ideal and perfect no matter how it is consumed. Perfect power quality all the time.

That means that all devices consume less electricity, operate at a lower temperature, and are protected from fluctuating distortions that wear and tear all devices so they last longer. The most incredible aspect of perfect electricity consumption is that the devices operate perfectly as designed without power problems. For example, asynchronous motors operate as synchronous motors meaning that motor droop is nearly eliminated, data transfer among servers is improved meaning that packet error and retransmission rates are decreased.

These are some of the problems that it solves, that today are just accepted as a cost of doing business.
 

Bugman1400

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
This type of technology has been around longer than you think. It sounds eerily similar to the Rockwell Automation Retroincabulator technology that has been out for some time now. My guess is that the method cdoerfler is using is probably just an upgrade to the ambiphasient lunar wang shaft. Every couple of years, the field of metallurgy seems to advance and produce better materials that can then be used to develop a more efficient process.
 

cdoerfler

Member
Location
Pittsboro, NC
Retroencabulator

Retroencabulator

:lol:, I do appreciate a good joke.

I prefer to put this in the category of Arthur Clarke's 3rd law, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

This type of technology has been around longer than you think. It sounds eerily similar to the Rockwell Automation Retroincabulator technology that has been out for some time now. My guess is that the method cdoerfler is using is probably just an upgrade to the ambiphasient lunar wang shaft. Every couple of years, the field of metallurgy seems to advance and produce better materials that can then be used to develop a more efficient process.
 

Bugman1400

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
:lol:, I do appreciate a good joke.

I prefer to put this in the category of Arthur Clarke's 3rd law, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

I prefer to put it in another category by another great philosopher, WC Fields, "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull." or from PT Barnum, "There's a sucker born every minute."
 

cdoerfler

Member
Location
Pittsboro, NC
Benefit is Verifiable

Benefit is Verifiable

Your skepticism is duly noted. The benefit of SDE is that it is immediately verifiable. When we optimize the electrical energy, the power factor for every device is optimized as well. Easy to check.

Check the video and see the ability to turn it on and off in a server rack.


I prefer to put it in another category by another great philosopher, WC Fields, "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull." or from PT Barnum, "There's a sucker born every minute."
 

junkhound

Senior Member
Location
Renton, WA
Occupation
EE, power electronics specialty
How about a patent number to go to so one can assess the actual technology being promulgated ?
 
Care to try again?

Electrical networks today are zombie networks. There is no intelligent distribution. It is simply connect load with source using wires and electrons will travel. This electrical energy flow is the equivalent of having an irrigation system without pumps. Without pumps, you cannot maintain water pressure. Without 3DFS you cannot maintain stable or consistent voltage, or anything else.
Without a pump? We call them generators, most power stations have them. There are also a multitude of control systems, regulators, etc in the transmission system. These make for a rather stable system voltage. Check out things like the "Woodward turbine governor", they're rather neat devices.
Current is simply what the load draws, so to control that, you need to control that device.
I can also maintain a "stable" voltage quite easily with a UPS, but very few devices need that.
Since the fundamental line frequency is quite stable, we can otherwise ignore that.

So when I look at how to answer the question of "what problem does this solve?" I think about it from how water pumps improved irrigation. What does a water pump do? It breaks down a massive volume of water into bite sized chunks that can be managed so that the water flow and pressure remains constant. The same is true with Software-Defined Electricity ("SDE"). Our device breaks down the electricity into individual bite sized chunks that can be managed. It happens that these chunks are at microseconds and the results are better electricity functionality.
Perhaps I could introduce you to the centrifugal pump, which, unlike a piston pump, doesn't "break" the stream of water.
What is "better electricity functionality", anyway?


If you could put a microscope and look at the electricity flowing through the network without SDE, it is choppy and uneven. Capacitors, inductors and transformers do nothing to fix this.

Again, what is "choppy and uneven"? Last time I looked at a line, it was a slightly distorted sine wave. Hardly choppy. The peaks were about the same and zero crossings happened at the right time.

When SDE is installed every parameter of the electricity in the electrical network is optimized every microsecond. That includes voltage, power factor, harmonics, etc. So under a microscope the electricity flow is ideal and perfect no matter how it is consumed. Perfect power quality all the time.

Most people don't care about power factor unless it's egregiously lagging, and many customers don't pay a penalty fee no matter how bad it is. Likewise for harmonics, just not a problem for most customers

That means that all devices consume less electricity, operate at a lower temperature, and are protected from fluctuating distortions that wear and tear all devices so they last longer.

So, the 60W lamp will consume less than 60W?
How will the device last longer?

The most incredible aspect of perfect electricity consumption is that the devices operate perfectly as designed without power problems. For example, asynchronous motors operate as synchronous motors meaning that motor droop is nearly eliminated,

How does an "asynchronous" motor (induction motor) operate at synchronous speed? Please explain the physics around that. Or, do you mean that induction motors operate with a near-unity power factor?

data transfer among servers is improved meaning that packet error and retransmission rates are decreased.

Um, no. Not at all. Power quality is virtually never the cause of data errors or retransmission's unless the device's power supply can't keep up the DC levels needed by the transceivers.

These are some of the problems that it solves, that today are just accepted as a cost of doing business.

I don't see any "problems" described.
AFAICT, a zero cost, too.
 

junkhound

Senior Member
Location
Renton, WA
Occupation
EE, power electronics specialty
Ain't it fun when someone tries to BS this group :lol:

Never had any luck watchin' for harmonics with a 'microscope', spectrum analyzer yes, etc....
 

cdoerfler

Member
Location
Pittsboro, NC
Engineers are my favorite groups to engage with

Engineers are my favorite groups to engage with

Okay. This is fun.

Your stable voltage with a UPS is simply vandalizing the battery.

Yes, a distorted sinewave means that the flow of electricity is impeded in some manner. A distortion is a direct representation of electrical energy being converted to heat, vibration, etc. somewhere in the network.

Most people do not understand how badly reactive power, power factor, harmonics, imbalanced phases affects their operations. You are a great example of this. You do not think the retransmission rates have anything to do with the electricity. From my perspective, that is laughable. Next thing you are going to tell me is that you measure electricity using RMS values. Then you would lose all credibility!

If a motor is rated at 1200 RPM and it is fully loaded, does it remain at 1200RPM? No. Why is that? I am sure you have some reason, but let me tell you what is really happening. When SDE is installed in the network, power is delivered perfectly to that and every other motor operating in the network no matter the load factor. That results in a 1200 RPM motor remaining 1200 RPM whether it is loaded or not.



Care to try again?


Without a pump? We call them generators, most power stations have them. There are also a multitude of control systems, regulators, etc in the transmission system. These make for a rather stable system voltage. Check out things like the "Woodward turbine governor", they're rather neat devices.
Current is simply what the load draws, so to control that, you need to control that device.
I can also maintain a "stable" voltage quite easily with a UPS, but very few devices need that.
Since the fundamental line frequency is quite stable, we can otherwise ignore that.


Perhaps I could introduce you to the centrifugal pump, which, unlike a piston pump, doesn't "break" the stream of water.
What is "better electricity functionality", anyway?




Again, what is "choppy and uneven"? Last time I looked at a line, it was a slightly distorted sine wave. Hardly choppy. The peaks were about the same and zero crossings happened at the right time.



Most people don't care about power factor unless it's egregiously lagging, and many customers don't pay a penalty fee no matter how bad it is. Likewise for harmonics, just not a problem for most customers



So, the 60W lamp will consume less than 60W?
How will the device last longer?



How does an "asynchronous" motor (induction motor) operate at synchronous speed? Please explain the physics around that. Or, do you mean that induction motors operate with a near-unity power factor?



Um, no. Not at all. Power quality is virtually never the cause of data errors or retransmission's unless the device's power supply can't keep up the DC levels needed by the transceivers.



I don't see any "problems" described.
AFAICT, a zero cost, too.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
USPTO patent number 9,178,354, entitled “Multipurpose, Universal Converter With Battery Control and Real Time Power Factor Correction.” issued November 3, 2015
I am not surprised that the patent was issued, given the current execrable understanding of technology and obviousness in the Patent Office, but note that the issuance of a patent does not say anything about the practicality or economic benefit of a given device or technology.

The two biggest problems that I see are:

1. The power losses in any conversion mechanism are likely to be far higher than any losses caused by the poor waveforms it tries to correct. PFC compensation as delivered by a grid interactive renewable energy device is practical since it does not increase the losses already inherent in the interface.
2. Anything that uses current battery technology for energy storage will cost more than non-storage options. Or supercapacitors for very short term storage. Batteries are by nature inefficient storage mechanisms and have a high periodic replacement cost. Power storage at the utility level requires a particular combination of high marginal power costs to make economic sense at this time.
 

cdoerfler

Member
Location
Pittsboro, NC
Fantastic! Neither of those problems apply.

Fantastic! Neither of those problems apply.

The VectorQ2 as mentioned previously is limited by kVAR, but let's keep the power range to 30-50kW. To correct all of that power on the fly in real time require 120W. So you are right that they are likely, but that does not apply to us. Great comment though!

There is not any battery technology or supercapacitor technology in this device. It is proprietary energy storage that is much more flexible than what you have mentioned.



I am not surprised that the patent was issued, given the current execrable understanding of technology and obviousness in the Patent Office, but note that the issuance of a patent does not say anything about the practicality or economic benefit of a given device or technology.

The two biggest problems that I see are:

1. The power losses in any conversion mechanism are likely to be far higher than any losses caused by the poor waveforms it tries to correct. PFC compensation as delivered by a grid interactive renewable energy device is practical since it does not increase the losses already inherent in the interface.
2. Anything that uses current battery technology for energy storage will cost more than non-storage options. Or supercapacitors for very short term storage. Batteries are by nature inefficient storage mechanisms and have a high periodic replacement cost. Power storage at the utility level requires a particular combination of high marginal power costs to make economic sense at this time.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
The VectorQ2 as mentioned previously is limited by kVAR, but let's keep the power range to 30-50kW. To correct all of that power on the fly in real time require 120W. So you are right that they are likely, but that does not apply to us. Great comment though!

There is not any battery technology or supercapacitor technology in this device. It is proprietary energy storage that is much more flexible than what you have mentioned.

It in input and output interface for energy storage, and specifically mentions batteries in its claims. To the extent that it does not include any technology for the energy storage itself it is indeed flexible, but not necessarily either practical or non-obvious.
Many of the claimed features for stored energy management are incorporated into currently available devices, including hybrid grid interactive inverters. Which makes the approval of those patent claims seem dubious to me.
 
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