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    Engineer vs EC

    We have a project where none of the drawings have AFC calculation. The enginner didn't provide calculations to any drawings. Would the engineer or EC be responsible for supplying the calculation for service equipment. I always heard that EC are licensed installers not licensed engineers. I also understand it to that you bettwr hopeople your insurance company doesn't hear your designing electrical work and don't have enough or right insurance coverage. I don't understand why engineers always leave out the AFC calculation.

    #2
    This can be a contentious issue. It really depends on the local laws.
    Here I know in CA and OR if you are the licensed contractor you can provide the drawings if you are the one performing the work. You could run afoul with your insurance if it is not covered. You probably need errors and omissions for design work.

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      #3
      I've always gotten them from the engineer or the PoCo.

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        #4
        Originally posted by Sierrasparky View Post
        This can be a contentious issue. It really depends on the local laws.
        Here I know in CA and OR if you are the licensed contractor you can provide the drawings if you are the one performing the work. You could run afoul with your insurance if it is not covered. You probably need errors and omissions for design work.

        That is great advise. Im not sure where you are in the field of electrical owner, master of record or just plain JM. If you were master of record what duties or responsibilities would you require as master of record if you ever got asked. I think just because your a master electrician that doesnt make you an estimator, business owner, project manager, or even a good electrician. so when your hired as a peg to fill a whole for an electrical shop to do business. what are some of the things to look out for as master of record for a shop?

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          #5
          I dont think it is specifically any certain person's responsibility to do the FC Calcs, unless local law is such that a PE is required. If a PE is contracted to do the design, seems like he should provide FC.

          In Washington, I believe as a master electrican, I can design anything I want and no engineer is required. I am sure there are places it is different.

          I have never heard of being insured for "design work" or been asked by an insurance company if I will be doing design.
          Ethan Brush - East West Electric. NY, WA. MA

          "You can't generalize"

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            #6
            Originally posted by electrofelon View Post
            I dont think it is specifically any certain person's responsibility to do the FC Calcs, unless local law is such that a PE is required. If a PE is contracted to do the design, seems like he should provide FC.

            In Washington, I believe as a master electrican, I can design anything I want and no engineer is required. I am sure there are places it is different.

            I have never heard of being insured for "design work" or been asked by an insurance company if I will be doing design.
            I do agree if the EC had designed the job then they would be responsible if the engineer designed the work then he should provide all necessary data needed to complete work.

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              #7
              Just submit an RFI and ask him to submit the fault currents.

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                #8
                Originally posted by mannyb View Post
                Would the engineer or EC be responsible for supplying the calculation for service equipment.
                Whichever one had it in their scope of work. If there were no details in the scope then you will have to clean up the assumption by asking one or the other to provide it, probably for a small phenomenal fee.
                BB+/BB=?

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                  #9
                  Originally posted by Johnhall30 View Post
                  Just submit an RFI and ask him to submit the fault currents.
                  Thats what I would do.


                  Originally posted by electrofelon View Post
                  I dont think it is specifically any certain person's responsibility to do the FC Calcs, unless local law is such that a PE is required. If a PE is contracted to do the design, seems like he should provide FC.

                  In Washington, I believe as a master electrican, I can design anything I want and no engineer is required. I am sure there are places it is different.

                  I have never heard of being insured for "design work" or been asked by an insurance company if I will be doing design.
                  Standard contractors liability insurance does not cover "Professional Liability" for any 'design build' work. The key there is 'design'. Your not insured as a designer. it costs us about 3k per year for our "Professional Liability insurance" that covers a design staff (EE, lighting designer / architect). How often are you going to get sued for a flawed 'design' as a small shop? Probably never. If you start bidding on utility or municipal work they typically ask for it.
                  Comments based on 2017 NEC unless otherwise noted.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by tortuga View Post
                    Thats what I would do.



                    Standard contractors liability insurance does not cover "Professional Liability" for any 'design build' work. The key there is 'design'. Your not insured as a designer. it costs us about 3k per year for our "Professional Liability insurance" that covers a design staff (EE, lighting designer / architect). How often are you going to get sued for a flawed 'design' as a small shop? Probably never. If you start bidding on utility or municipal work they typically ask for it.
                    I am not sure I agree with that. I think the difference is probably the distinction between "design that requires a PE" verseus just "design". I do lots of design in Washington State. There is no restriction and no requirement for different insurance. A client could certainly ask that the plans be stamped by a license and insured EE.
                    Ethan Brush - East West Electric. NY, WA. MA

                    "You can't generalize"

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by electrofelon View Post
                      I am not sure I agree with that. I think the difference is probably the distinction between "design that requires a PE" verseus just "design". I do lots of design in Washington State. There is no restriction and no requirement for different insurance. A client could certainly ask that the plans be stamped by a license and insured EE.
                      Yeah you might be right. I got slightly motivated to glaze over some fine print.
                      Check your fine print or ask your agent, I am sure policies are all different, our contractors policy only covers 5 area's:
                      Completed products coverage: Any services completed by construction contractors are covered against any faulty installations or products that cause injuries. Any legal expenses and damages are paid up to the policy’s limits.

                      Client and third-party injuries: If a third-party or client is injured on the jobsite, any ongoing medical expenses and court-awarded compensation claims are paid.

                      Property damage: A construction contractor can be sued for any damages caused to a property while work is being completed, such as a remodeling contractor who damages a home. The liability coverage will pay for any property damage caused.

                      Advertising injury: Advertising injuries include lawsuits for libel, slander, privacy invasion or copyright infringement. This could come from misleading advertisements including social media posts or false or misleading information printed on company fliers.

                      Medical expense claims: The medical expense portion of contractor’s liability pays for immediate medical attention for visitors or clients injured while visiting a construction jobsite.
                      If I design/build a job in a erroneous way and it fails in some spectacular way its probably covered under the 'faulty installations'. If we design or test stuff that another contractor installs then we need the professional liability.
                      Comments based on 2017 NEC unless otherwise noted.

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