Outdoor Kitchens - require arc-fault?

[PetrosA]

If we want to call this a kitchen, 210.70(A)(1) requires at least one lighting outlet doesn't it? Lighting is not an option it is a requirement if it is a kitchen or any other habitable room.



In general no, in some of the examples we have seen, I'm not so certain.

In spite of my previous tone, I do agree that in some cases it might be prudent, if not explicitly required, to use AFCI for liability reasons. If the outdoor cooking area were physically attached to the dwelling (common walls, roof etc.) and the possibility of a fire in that area also included a likelihood that flames could easily spread to the dwelling, I would use AFCI protection on the lighting circuits (2008 here in PA still in effect...) to cover my derriere.

 

[kwired]

The Article 100 Definition of Kitchen doesn't say that it is a habitable room, in order to be a Kitchen.

If a "sink and permanent provisions for food preparation and cooking" are present, then, by definition there is a Kitchen. With the use of "An area", in the definition, walls aren't even needed.

So, the closest 210.70(A) would get for a freestanding outdoor kitchen at a single family dwelling would be 210.70(A)(2)(b), and that might be a ways away from the freestanding outdoor kitchen area.

So, the lighting outlets in the kitchen area are not "required" per se, rather are added by design, if at all.

Definition of habitable is capable of being lived in : suitable for habitation, which in reality may be different for some then others. I guess same applies to some indoor situations

 

[kwired]

In spite of my previous tone, I do agree that in some cases it might be prudent, if not explicitly required, to use AFCI for liability reasons. If the outdoor cooking area were physically attached to the dwelling (common walls, roof etc.) and the possibility of a fire in that area also included a likelihood that flames could easily spread to the dwelling, I would use AFCI protection on the lighting circuits (2008 here in PA still in effect...) to cover my derriere.

I'd bet high dollars that if there is a fire it has better chance of starting on cooktop or other cooking appliance instead of in wiring.

 

[ptonsparky]

I'd bet high dollars that if there is a fire it has better chance of starting on cooktop or other cooking appliance instead of in wiring.

My outdoor grilling normally has fire, flames and smoke. Sometimes controlled.

 

[kwired]

My outdoor grilling normally has fire, flames and smoke. Sometimes controlled.

You cook good Nebraska beef too

 

[mwm1752]

Arguements are fast & furious == some say kitchens some say outdoors, while this is becoming a more on the fence & let the brothers fight it out lets consider this;

The NEC has multiple code for the same isuue IE: The reference code for AFCI protection recepts that are replaced are not in Art 210. Kitchen dishwashers are GFCI protected but (controversy) wet bar dishwasher would not be unless within 6" of a sink & is a plug in unit. Disconnecting means is all over the place. Point being - outdoors may GFCI any recept within the vicinity, then, would Kitchen also require AFCI protection?

This might be why the CMP did not initially insert AFCI into a kitchen -- also if my BBQ is on wheels & has a replaceable propane tank is it permanent. if the BBQ is built in and has a utility natural gas connection doe that change the status?

 

[kwired]

Arguements are fast & furious == some say kitchens some say outdoors, while this is becoming a more on the fence & let the brothers fight it out lets consider this;

The NEC has multiple code for the same isuue IE: The reference code for AFCI protection recepts that are replaced are not in Art 210. Kitchen dishwashers are GFCI protected but (controversy) wet bar dishwasher would not be unless within 6" of a sink & is a plug in unit. Disconnecting means is all over the place. Point being - outdoors may GFCI any recept within the vicinity, then, would Kitchen also require AFCI protection?

This might be why the CMP did not initially insert AFCI into a kitchen -- also if my BBQ is on wheels & has a replaceable propane tank is it permanent. if the BBQ is built in and has a utility natural gas connection doe that change the status?

I don't see a freestanding range (electric or gas) any more or less permanent either, but they are accepted as permanent. All you need to do to move it is unplug the cord and pull it out - gas often needs tools to disconnect though they could easily use some kind of quick connect coupling, but they don't usually have wheels.

210.8(D) for the dishwasher is somewhat controversial away from the kitchen. The title suggests it only applies to kitchens, but the text suggests it applies to any dishwasher in a dwelling. If fires are the reason that triggered this, why wouldn't the rule apply to all dishwashers (or at least residential type dishwashers) regardless of location?

I've said it before though - if fires are the reason for that requirement seems like it should have been addressed by listing not code:slaphead:

 

[mwm1752]

I don't see a freestanding range (electric or gas) any more or less permanent either, but they are accepted as permanent. All you need to do to move it is unplug the cord and pull it out - gas often needs tools to disconnect though they could easily use some kind of quick connect coupling, but they don't usually have wheels.

210.8(D) for the dishwasher is somewhat controversial away from the kitchen. The title suggests it only applies to kitchens, but the text suggests it applies to any dishwasher in a dwelling. If fires are the reason that triggered this, why wouldn't the rule apply to all dishwashers (or at least residential type dishwashers) regardless of location?

I've said it before though - if fires are the reason for that requirement seems like it should have been addressed by listing not code:slaphead:

I have an outdoor portable BBQ , counter/table & a hose spicket with a bucket underneath do I now have a kitchen?:rotflmao:Just Joking K

Actually the title states Kitchen dishwasher ( not suggested) and also "dwelling unit locations" refers to several types of dwelling units, singlefamily, two family,townhomes, apartments, ect. IMO not that there are several locations in a dwelling that have a dishwasher. The NEC also requires kitchen receptacle requirements. Do I have to have receptacles at a wet bar at certain locations now?
The handbook has no comments on on this new addition, even though comments aren't code they are a helpful tool. I am not disagreeing with your premise on fires though I have no research on how many or how often they happen. Would be interesting to know.
Not sure about the listing comment are you talking about a cord plug in or all dishwasher listed to be GFCI protected?

 

[kwired]

I have an outdoor portable BBQ , counter/table & a hose spicket with a bucket underneath do I now have a kitchen?:rotflmao:Just Joking K

Actually the title states Kitchen dishwasher ( not suggested) and also "dwelling unit locations" refers to several types of dwelling units, singlefamily, two family,townhomes, apartments, ect. IMO not that there are several locations in a dwelling that have a dishwasher. The NEC also requires kitchen receptacle requirements. Do I have to have receptacles at a wet bar at certain locations now?
The handbook has no comments on on this new addition, even though comments aren't code they are a helpful tool. I am not disagreeing with your premise on fires though I have no research on how many or how often they happen. Would be interesting to know.
Not sure about the listing comment are you talking about a cord plug in or all dishwasher listed to be GFCI protected?

What I am talking about is the fact that the reason dishwasher GFCI requirements were added is presumably because certain models have been prone to starting fires and that GFCI protection would interrupt current for whatever situaiton is happening here before it starts a fire. Ever since hearing this I have been against the idea that we as installers need to provide a solution to a manufacturer defect and that consumer product safety commission should have stepped in and demanded the manufacturer make a change to their product and/or listing agencies should have required changes to have the product remain listed. If their solution ends up being a GFCI component in their machine - so be it.

How many household dishwashers are installed in other then a dwelling unit kitchen? Does that make them less likely to start on fire? I doubt it, so if requiring a GFCI why only in dwelling kitchens? The whole issue is stupid from the start.

 

[mwm1752]

CMP has some splainin to do -- I know we agree on the ridiculous part

 

[mwm1752]

Just read the ROC's and the main reason was due to shock hazard not fires. The vote was 9 yea/ 4 nea so it was not overwelming. One comment in the rop's was "any electrical appliance combined with the use of water should be GFCI protected" Does that mean the CMP is making its way toward sump pumps, Preasure pumps, circuilation pumps & 240v appliances as well - oh my

When I was growing up we had metal kitchen cabinets, if you touched the frig & the cabinets at the same time zappp. turned out the 2 prong frig could reverse polarity causing the shock. The grounded plug solved alot of these problems, now we have gfci protection for disposals, Lucky to be alive

 

[kwired]

Just read the ROC's and the main reason was due to shock hazard not fires. The vote was 9 yea/ 4 nea so it was not overwelming. One comment in the rop's was "any electrical appliance combined with the use of water should be GFCI protected" Does that mean the CMP is making its way toward sump pumps, Preasure pumps, circuilation pumps & 240v appliances as well - oh my

When I was growing up we had metal kitchen cabinets, if you touched the frig & the cabinets at the same time zappp. turned out the 2 prong frig could reverse polarity causing the shock. The grounded plug solved alot of these problems, now we have gfci protection for disposals, Lucky to be alive

I still disagree that all appliances that have water involvement need GFCI protection. Cord and plug connected I can understand, potential loss of EGC is the bigger issue not the water. I have done work in dairy processing plant that has water washing down equipment daily or even more often then that or other similar environments pretty much all of my career, there is no (or at least no commonly used) GFCI for 480/277 volt equipment, and seen some things that make you wonder, the most water tight equipment out there still fails and you have a motor terminal housing or other box filled with water and gook and people ask why nobody got shocked - EGC never failed.

If they want a GFCI on a cord and plug connected household dishwasher I have no objection though I feel the risk still isn't that high for most typical applications, but feel it is pointless to have class A GFCI protection for a hard wired unit.