switches 3 and 4 way troubleshooting

[Mark Price]

replaced lights and now they do not work steps to trouble shoot the problem:?

 

[electricalist]

Often a lot of problem solving involves defining the problem,,which can be tricky.
The thread says switches 3 and 4 way trouble shooting..the post says replaced light.
You didnt give enough information to be helpfull.
If you dont mind please start with who s lights they are ,,where are the lights that arent working then on to how the old ones worked and or why they are being replaced.

 

[kwired]

Were they replaced in an attempt to repair non working lights or were they just replaced because new ones were desired and after all was done they didn't work?

 

[cadpoint]

The circuit can be at the front or back of the switches. The neutral has to be at the front or back of the circuit, sounds like you mixed it up...

Secondly I usually try to put each wire in the same position on the three ways,
Hot on the toggle side of the three way.

 

[John120/240]

We'll assume Romex wiring. At the 4 ways, the Travelers (Black & Red for our discussion).Black & Red travelers in the same Romex cable go on the same color of screw on your 4 way switch. The two whites just wire nut together.

At the 3 Way switches. Easiest method would of been to power one 3 way, switch leg at other three way. So Travelers Black & Red go on the same colored screw. The Black which is usually in a two wire Romex would go on the odd colored screw. This Black would either be the power or the switch leg. At each 3 way end the two whites would just wire nut together.

Member Ron Coleman has some neat depictions that would help you understand 3 way & 4 way switching.

 

[under8ed]

If this is related to your other post on bulbs failing; a problem neutral may have lost connection completely.
Something doesn't seem right here, are you testing us? As an IBEW journeyman electrician;
you should be explaining these answers to lesser trained electricians.

 

[ptonsparky]

This plus the other post suggests getting a tester out and checking for voltage.

 

[al hildenbrand]

replaced lights and now they do not work steps to trouble shoot the problem:?

1. Verify that the replacement lights are, in fact, good.
2. What is the wiring method? (Is it old enough to have the possibility of switched neutral, Chicago 3way or Carter 3way; or new enough to have a California 3way?)
3. What are the symptoms? You are standing at it and exercising it, so what does it do?
4. A voltage and continuity tester, along with a hank of insulated wire, are your friends.

 

[readydave8]

I often take the switches out, find the hot, find the black that runs to lampholder. Then touch different combinations without switches. Check switches with continuity tester. Reinstall switches one at a time, checking to make sure still working each time. Then check again after putting covers back on (have found some that worked fine hanging loose from wall, installing in box and putting on cover made them quit working).

Won't work with Carter method but I haven't run in to that in a long time.

 

[Mark Price]

1. Verify that the replacement lights are, in fact, good.
2. What is the wiring method? (Is it old enough to have the possibility of switched neutral, Chicago 3way or Carter 3way; or new enough to have a California 3way?)
3. What are the symptoms? You are standing at it and exercising it, so what does it do?
4. A voltage and continuity tester, along with a hank of insulated wire, are your friends.

the last light of three was replaced and all worked fine
second light replaced( led style) first in line with from the switches and nothing works
checked the led fixture and it works when plugged into an outlet
all connections look good
not getting 120 at the first light source
the 3 way at the power source was replaced, checked and wired properly
so many possibilities where to start
thanks for your help

 

[Mark Price]

Often a lot of problem solving involves defining the problem,,which can be tricky.
The thread says switches 3 and 4 way trouble shooting..the post says replaced light.
You didnt give enough information to be helpfull.
If you dont mind please start with who s lights they are ,,where are the lights that arent working then on to how the old ones worked and or why they are being replaced.

everything worked at first
just lights were replaced
first light replaced no problem all worked fine
second light replaced( led style tested and it works from another power source) nothing works
no 120 to the light led first in the line from the switches

 

[Mark Price]

3 and 4 way reply

3 and 4 way reply

i apologize for not giving more info so here goes
two 3 ways with a 4 way in the middle three lights in all
lights to be replaced for newer ones all worked fine before homeowner started
first light replaced (last in the line of lights) all worked well
second light replaced nothing works
- checked led style lights works fine
- 3 way switch at power source was replaced correctly still nothing
- no 120 at first light
- checked for loose wires in that box
how could installing a second light caused the whole system to not work?
power to the first switch good
breaker never tripped
where to start switches and wire connections
thanks for your help while i try to help a friend, his wife is tired of the halls being dark

 

[ptonsparky]

Ahhh...home owner. Open up all the boxes and start over.

You need to find and identify the hot wherever it may be. Find the switch leg back to the lights. Identify the wires to each fixture. Connect the hot and neutral, make sure they all work before putting any switches in the circuit using a disposal pigtail if needed.

Identfy the travelers between the switches and connect the 3 and 4 ways. Connect hot to common of first three way, connect switch leg to common of second three way.

 

[roger]

all worked fine before homeowner started

Yep and I bet you aren't being told everything.

Roger

 

[al hildenbrand]

Ahhh...home owner. Open up all the boxes and start over.

:thumbsup:
Agreed.

And don't forget to verify the neutral, along the way. If there is an un-reidentified cable white wire being used out of that middle light, it's entirely possible that the "hot" white wire of the switch loop got thrown into the neutral splice for the lights. That, and the "3 way switch at power source was replaced correctly" are the red flags.

Is the unswitched hot supply to the whole array, in fact, at the threeway, or does it come through a light first? Finding the supply, both hot and neutral, establishes where to start. From the supply hot and neutral, ring out the wires and all the connections, and end at the lights.

 

[growler]

how could installing a second light caused the whole system to not work?

Depends on what all is in the junction box where this fixture is installed. If the HO is telling the truth I would check for power an neutral in this box. Even remake connections. I have seen a wire break inside the insulation an open could not be seen.

Check and see what's in that junction box, could be half the house fed from there.

 

[jaylectricity]

A problem I see often is that you replace a 3-way switch and wire it properly and it turns out it was wired consistently improperly on the other switch. So you have the right wires connected on the switch you put in, but they don't match the improper connections on the other switch.

Like somebody else said, open them all up and start over.

 

[kwired]

A problem I see often is that you replace a 3-way switch and wire it properly and it turns out it was wired consistently improperly on the other switch. So you have the right wires connected on the switch you put in, but they don't match the improper connections on the other switch.

Like somebody else said, open them all up and start over.

And there is no proper color configuration of a three way-four way switch loop, you need to pay attention to logic of what is there, outside of the "Chicago" or "Carter" scheme, you need input and output of the three way loop on common terminals and from a logic (not a physical location) point of view the "traveler" wires hit ever 4 way (being careful to not connect the 4 ways wrong) somewhere between the two three ways.

 

[jaylectricity]

And there is no proper color configuration of a three way-four way switch loop

Exactly, somebody might find it logical to put the two most common colors (black and white) as the travelers with the uncommon color on the uncommon colored screw. Or use the black as the switch leg on the dead-end, Or have a dead-end 3-way with red and white travellers, but the load comes out of the 4-way so they have black and red travelers to the 3-way with the feed.

 

[kwired]

Exactly, somebody might find it logical to put the two most common colors (black and white) as the travelers with the uncommon color on the uncommon colored screw. Or use the black as the switch leg on the dead-end, Or have a dead-end 3-way with red and white travellers, but the load comes out of the 4-way so they have black and red travelers to the 3-way with the feed.

To me what is logical is to learn how 3 and 4 way switches work and ignore color schemes, you can use color to identify individual conductors for a particular install - but where people go wrong is learning black goes to "A" terminal red to "B" terminal.... and they get lost if they run into something different then what they learned, if they learn how it works it doesn't matter what color it is they just need to learn difference between a common conductor and a traveler conductor.