Dual Function AFCI GFCI breakers that are UL Rated Between Panels?????

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magictolight.com

Senior Member
Location
Indianola, Iowa
I am nailing down my AFCI and GFCI inventory on our trucks and have opted to cut inventory on the trucks by keeping dual function breakers available for my techs. Has anyone found an interchangeable DF breaker available that is UL rated for multiple panel boards? and aside from the extra cost for the breaker does anyone see any substantial draw back in using DF breakers for all AFCI and GFCI applications?
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Has anyone found an interchangeable DF breaker available that is UL rated for multiple panel boards?

I don't think you will ever see such a device and keep in mind that any breaker classified for use in another panel is limited to 10kA fault current which could be an issue.

and aside from the extra cost for the breaker does anyone see any substantial draw back in using DF breakers for all AFCI and GFCI applications?

I have never installed an AFCI but judging from the problems of them brought up on this forum I will never install one where it is not required.
 

magictolight.com

Senior Member
Location
Indianola, Iowa
It is true AFCI protection can have some issues, but we are excited to implement this into our client's homes, especially homes where the wiring is older. We offer it as an opportunity to bring an extra level of protection to your home. Home owners want to be as safe as they can, and this is technology I have learned to really appreciate. We are in the business of keeping our clients as safe as possible. When we implement it into an existing home we always let the client know that if there is a problem on the circuit, this breaker will see it and there will be some trouble shooting fees involved if so, or we can put a standard breaker back in. I don't need to tell you our clients gladly pay the trouble shooting fee to figure it out. Good for them, and good for us. Win-Win!
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
It is true AFCI protection can have some issues, but we are excited to implement this into our client's homes, especially homes where the wiring is older. We offer it as an opportunity to bring an extra level of protection to your home.... Win-Win!
Since safety is the prime goal do you must be passing on the AFCIs at cost.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
It is true AFCI protection can have some issues, but we are excited to implement this into our client's homes, especially homes where the wiring is older. We offer it as an opportunity to bring an extra level of protection to your home. Home owners want to be as safe as they can, and this is technology I have learned to really appreciate. We are in the business of keeping our clients as safe as possible. When we implement it into an existing home we always let the client know that if there is a problem on the circuit, this breaker will see it and there will be some trouble shooting fees involved if so, or we can put a standard breaker back in. I don't need to tell you our clients gladly pay the trouble shooting fee to figure it out. Good for them, and good for us. Win-Win!

I have a very, very hard time believing your customers will glad to pay for multiple trips to troubleshoot a tripping AFCI.


Your business, your choice:) but you asked for opinions I will never voluntarily install an AFCI.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I am willing to place bets on two things.

1. You won't find an AFCI breaker that is classified to fit into another manufacturer's panelboard, not at this time. Some may be rated to plug into older series that were at one time acquired by another company - IE Eaton's BR series may be listed to use in Bryant or Westinghouse panels, but only because they took over those older lines of products.

2. This thread will turn into a discussion on mostly the downfalls of AFCI and only a few positives, as well as some discussion on how manufacturer's went about ensuring this technology was adopted into code - and if that does happen the thread will easily reach a couple hundred posts:happyyes:
 

magictolight.com

Senior Member
Location
Indianola, Iowa
Since safety is the prime goal do you must be passing on the AFCIs at cost.

Safety is always the primary goal: We are in the business of letting our client's know the opportunities that are available to them. If they don't know, they won't buy. If they don't buy, we don't make a profit. If we don't make a profit, we won't be in business long, or chasing our tail trying to stay in business. Being in the service industry, we should not limit ourselves to being the "fix it" guy. We need to be the "Electrical Consultant". To illustrate: you live in a very old home with questionable wiring. You can't afford to rewire the entire home. Our company technician suggests AFCI breakers and smoke detectors as an affordable option to keep your home safe. We communicate the benefits and the pitfalls of AFCI protection and let the client decide. Should we sell them at cost? That would be fool hardy on our end! I would venture to say there are few companies out there that sell there safety product at cost!
 

magictolight.com

Senior Member
Location
Indianola, Iowa
I have a very, very hard time believing your customers will glad to pay for multiple trips to troubleshoot a tripping AFCI.

We have awesome clients that want their homes safe, no matter what. Troubleshooting calls that require multiple trips are few and far between. When and if they do happen should not cause us to throw AFCI breakers out the window! How many other products out there can cause multiple troubleshooting calls? Smoke detectors come immediately to mind. Should we not recommend these because of the probability that they may go off when there is no smoke? Of course not.
 
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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Safety is always the primary goal: We are in the business of letting our client's know the opportunities that are available to them. If they don't know, they won't buy. If they don't buy, we don't make a profit. If we don't make a profit, we won't be in business long, or chasing our tail trying to stay in business. Being in the service industry, we should not limit ourselves to being the "fix it" guy. We need to be the "Electrical Consultant". To illustrate: you live in a very old home with questionable wiring. You can't afford to rewire the entire home. Our company technician suggests AFCI breakers and smoke detectors as an affordable option to keep your home safe. We communicate the benefits and the pitfalls of AFCI protection and let the client decide. Should we sell them at cost? That would be fool hardy on our end! I would venture to say there are few companies out there that sell there safety product at cost!
A good salesman will sell a rewire of the house instead of putting band-aids on what is there. Owner can't afford it? Scare tactics of telling them how their house will burn down, or insurance won't cover this or that still makes them find the money in a lot of cases.

Of course throw code requirements in and you get sell the AFCI's anyway with the rewire.

No matter how much you debate good and bad of AFCI, even most AFCI proponents agree AFCI will not detect a "glowing connection" at least before it develops into something more then just a glowing connection and many feel those cause more fires then other issues that AFCI might protect you from.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
We have awesome clients that want their homes safe, no matter what.

You are blessed but what evidence do you have that AFCIs will make the home safer?

Don't get me wrong, if a customer wants to pay for something I will gladly provide it but I sure hope you are not using scare tactics to up sell.


Troubleshooting calls that require multiple trips are few and far between.

Strange that exact problem comes up a again and again and again on this forum with many qualified contractors ripping their hair out while the customers treadmill or vacuum trips a perfectly installed AFCI.


When and if they do happen should not cause us to throw AFCI breakers out the window! How many other products out there can cause multiple troubleshooting calls? Smoke detectors come immediately to mind. Should we not recommend these because of the probability that they may go off when there is no smoke? Of course not.

Smoke detectors actully increase safety, at best the jury is still out on AFCI.

As I said before, your bussness your choice. :)

My choice would be not to recommend them or install them unless required by code or the customer insisted.

I would be more likely to recommend GFCI protection, proven technology.
 

magictolight.com

Senior Member
Location
Indianola, Iowa
A good salesman will sell a rewire of the house instead of putting band-aids on what is there. Owner can't afford it? Scare tactics of telling them how their house will burn down, or insurance won't cover this or that still makes them find the money in a lot of cases.

I would not call implementing new technology into an old system a "band aid" . We would call it an "up grade". I am sure you wouldn't use scare tactics of how "their house will burn down", nor would we. Funny thing though, electricians sell smoke detectors with the -if your house is burning down- sales pitch. Finally, not everyone can afford the $15k to $20k it will take to rewire, or more in some cases, but almost everyone can find the $1k to $2k to upgrade the breakers in their panel. It is good business to give the client options, and then let them decide.
 
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magictolight.com

Senior Member
Location
Indianola, Iowa
You are blessed but what evidence do you have that AFCIs will make the home safer?

Don't get me wrong, if a customer wants to pay for something I will gladly provide it but I sure hope you are not using scare tactics to up sell.

Agreed, no scare tactics, but electrical failure has a way of making clients a little "edgy".


Smoke detectors actully increase safety, at best the jury is still out on AFCI.

The last I checked the code began implementation of AFCI in '99. We are almost 20 years in with the code EXPANDING the requirements. Being members of the NFPA, I am left wondering who "the jury" is, if not the experts writing the code book. Yes, we could go around and around about the NEC being authored by some engineers or intellectuals sitting behind a desk and not in the real world, but the majority of the membership of the NFPA (Publisher of the NEC) are normal hard working professionals like you and me.

As I said before, your bussness your choice. :)

It is our business, and in our business we want our client to be aware of technology that can keep them safe. Again, I would say it is a WIN, WIN for them and us. If your client found out you were holding out on them after their home burned down, I think the next time you saw them it might get a little awkward!
 
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John120/240

Senior Member
Location
Olathe, Kansas
A good salesman will sell a rewire of the house instead of putting band-aids on what is there. Owner can't afford it? Scare tactics of telling them how their house will burn down, or insurance won't cover this or that still makes them find the money in a lot of cases.

I would not call implementing new technology into an old system a "band aid" . We would call it an "up grade". I am sure you wouldn't use scare tactics of how "their house will burn down", nor would we. Funny thing though, electricians sell smoke detectors with the -if your house is burning down- sales pitch. Finally, not everyone can afford the $15k to $20k it will take to rewire, or more in some cases, but almost everyone can find the $1k to $2k to upgrade the breakers in their panel. It is good business to give the client options, and then let them decide.

One problem with AFCI's in older homes is that other than current wiring methods were used. ie shared neutrals, switched neutrals which cause havoc with AFCI's. If your clients "can find the $1k to $2k to upgrade the breakers in their panel" Around here that $ 1 to 2 thousand would be a service upgrade with a new panel & breakers , AFCI only where required. Yes treadmills & vacuum cleaners are major culprits for AFCI tripping.
 
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magictolight.com

Senior Member
Location
Indianola, Iowa
One problem with AFCI's in older homes is that other than current wiring methods were used. ie shared neutrals, switched neutrals which cause havoc with AFCI's. If your clients "can find the $1k to $2k to upgrade the breakers in their panel" Around here that $ 1 to 2 thousand would be a service upgrade with a new panel & breakers , AFCI only where required. Yes treadmills & vacuum cleaners are major culprits for AFCI tripping.

Even with a service update, the old wiring may not be more protected than before, if standard circuit breakers are used. Multi Wire Branch Circuits can now be addressed with a two pole AFCI breaker. AFCI breakers have advanced substantially in the last several years and we have almost no call backs for failure or nuisance tripping with these breakers. What a great opportunity to differentiate yourself as a business to offer such technology knowing that most, if not all, of your competitors will not install these on a service upgrade!:)
 
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iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
[

Agreed, no scare tactics, but electrical failure has a way of making clients a little "edgy".

See the thing is you are trying scare tactics with me here on this forum by suggesting I am in for a bad time if a customer has an electrical fire. That being the case I would love to be a fly on the wall while you discuss the pros and cons of AFCI protection.

The last I checked the code began implementation of AFCI in '99. We are almost 20 years in with the code EXPANDING the requirements. Being members of the NFPA, I am left wondering who "the jury" is, if not the experts writing the code book. Yes, we could go around and around about the NEC being authored by some engineers or intellectuals sitting behind a desk and not in the real world, but the majority of the membership of the NFPA (Publisher of the NEC) are normal hard working professionals like you and me.


I am well aware of the history of AFCIs and who publishes the NEC. :)


Yes it's been almost 20 years, can you point to any independent studies that show they have increased safety?


It is our business, and in our business we want our client to be aware of technology that can keep them safe. Again, I would say it is a WIN, WIN for them and us.

Even if you have no idea if they will keep them safer.

If your client found out you were holding out on them after their home burned down, I think the next time you saw them it might get a little awkward!

That is scare tactic, thanks for confirming what I suspected.
 

magictolight.com

Senior Member
Location
Indianola, Iowa
See the thing is you are trying scare tactics with me here on this forum by suggesting I am in for a bad time if a customer has an electrical fire. That being the case I would love to be a fly on the wall while you discuss the pros and cons of AFCI protection.

Feel free to come and do a ride along with me and not have to be the "fly on the wall".


I am well aware of the history of AFCIs and who publishes the NEC. :)


Yes it's been almost 20 years, can you point to any independent studies that show they have increased safety?

Seriously, It's the NFPA. Do I need a greater authority to back up my postion. It wouldn't matter who I cited or what study I showed, I would get the same push back.;)



Even if you have no idea if they will keep them safer.

Of course it will leave there home safer.

That is scare tactic, thanks for confirming what I suspected.

YOU are the professional. YOU are the AUTHORITY when you are in their home. The first place the insurance company will look to is YOU. So that puts us in a place to ask, "Am I doing every thing I can to honor the client and their electrical system when I am in their home?" So we must set aside our angst for AFCI protection, and begin embracing the many new technologies that are sure to cause us grief in years to come, and know full well, it is our responsibility to inform the client of these technologies.

That is scare tactic, thanks for confirming what I suspected.

If you suspected we take our work extremely seriously, than, your welcome. This is a dangerous business we are in, and every day people live and die by the installations electricians complete.
.
 
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al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
I am nailing down my AFCI and GFCI inventory on our trucks and have opted to cut inventory on the trucks by keeping dual function breakers available for my techs. Has anyone found an interchangeable DF breaker available that is UL rated for multiple panel boards? and aside from the extra cost for the breaker does anyone see any substantial draw back in using DF breakers for all AFCI and GFCI applications?
To add a little more complexity to your questions, have you noted The world's first receptacle-type AFCI + GFCI will be hitting the suppliers shelves within a few weeks? My local Graybar inside sales guy gave me that time estimate and promised to email me when they arrive.

The Dual Function breakers only serve the panels they can be plugged into. Any client with fuses or the older circuit breaker types that will never have an AFCI listed for the old bus, can get a 2014 NEC compatible AFCI / GFCI solution with the new Leviton DFCI receptacle.

Looks to me like I have to add yet another item onto my truck's shelves.

It would be nice if there were a "one size fits all" solution, but, as I consider the variety of my client's hardware, I realize that I have to have fuses, plain old breakers, combination type AFCI breakers, dual function breakers, GFCIs of different colors TR and TR + WR, AFCI receptacles and deadfronts, and now DFCI receptacles. (I'm sure I'm missing some things that "should" be on the list. . .)

The Leviton "AGTR1", the dual function receptacle, at about $30, looks to be a perfect solution to Code compliant receptacle replacement for loose, worn or broken devices on existing ungrounded wiring methods and at kitchen counters, etc., where the installation being repaired is pre-1999 AFCI requirements.
 

peter d

Senior Member
Location
New England
I would be more likely to recommend GFCI protection, proven technology.

Just recently I was dispatched to a call back for a tripping QO AFCI/GFCI breaker for a dedicated dishwasher circuit. The dishwasher was brand new and very high end (Miele.) It had tripped a number of times for no apparent reason and the customer was getting frustrated, and we were looking bad. I removed the dual function breaker and installed a regular GFCI breaker in its place. It has not tripped since and I sleep well at night. :thumbsup: This proves to me that the AFCI was the bogus part of that equation, not the GFCI tripping due to leakage current.
 

peter d

Senior Member
Location
New England
See the thing is you are trying scare tactics with me here on this forum by suggesting I am in for a bad time if a customer has an electrical fire. That being the case I would love to be a fly on the wall while you discuss the pros and cons of AFCI protection.

That is scare tactic, thanks for confirming what I suspected.

Yeah, kind of reminds me of that guy who said a good lawyer could successfully sue an electrician for not purposely exceeding the adopted code when it's known to be stricter elsewhere.
 
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