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NEVER trust the test/reset buttons on a GFCI

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    Originally posted by kwired View Post
    And your average consumer is well aware of that
    True, so then from a theoretical stand point one of those notions is wrong.
    Our comedian shamelessly joked about a blackout. Talk about dark humor.

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      Originally posted by FionaZuppa View Post
      ....i really think 406.4(D)(2)(b) should not be allowed as-is. a EGC block-out pin should be supplied so that the 5- becomes a 1- GFCI.
      Except for the areas required to have GFCI protection there is little, if any, threat of a ground fault until you bring in an equipment grounding conductor into the circuit. Here in my living room I'm safer from a shock with a two wire circuit than I am with a three if I am using my table saw or hole hawg and I'm even safer with a two wire circuit protected by a GFCI. If you want to be really safe get rid of Equipment Grounds.
      If Billy Idol is on your playlist go reevaluate your life.

      Comment


        Originally posted by FionaZuppa View Post
        bringing this back to life, its a good subject.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twhzCgVst80

        i really think 406.4(D)(2)(b) should not be allowed as-is. a EGC block-out pin should be supplied so that the 5- becomes a 1- GFCI.
        But as said in the other thread, people will just find a way round that and actually end up creating a more dangerous situation- if they dont have a cheater, then they will remove the ground pin (yes you arent allowed to plug in most 5-15ps into non egc gfcis anyway per 250.114, but thats beside the point), and will have eliminated any protection afforded by an egc if the mutilated appliance is ever moved to a non gfci 5-15 receptacle.

        Originally posted by mbrooke View Post
        What do you mean by a 5 becoming a 1? Just confused here is all.
        What Fiona was getting at is that gfcis installed per the 406 exception be only of a 1-15 (AFAIK, no such receptacle exists) variety instead of the standard 5-15 gfci- imo, a terrible idea.

        Originally posted by ActionDave View Post
        Except for the areas required to have GFCI protection there is little, if any, threat of a ground fault until you bring in an equipment grounding conductor into the circuit. Here in my living room I'm safer from a shock with a two wire circuit than I am with a three if I am using my table saw or hole hawg and I'm even safer with a two wire circuit protected by a GFCI. If you want to be really safe get rid of Equipment Grounds.
        EGCs do present their own set of risks- you are surrounded by excellent paths back to the source w/ lots of surface/contact in your avg kitchen- Skin of Fridge,MW, range etc
        Last edited by user 100; 12-10-16, 06:46 PM. Reason: Fixed quote, and "A" button keeps sticking

        Comment


          Originally posted by ActionDave View Post
          Except for the areas required to have GFCI protection there is little, if any, threat of a ground fault until you bring in an equipment grounding conductor into the circuit. Here in my living room I'm safer from a shock with a two wire circuit than I am with a three if I am using my table saw or hole hawg and I'm even safer with a two wire circuit protected by a GFCI. If you want to be really safe get rid of Equipment Grounds.
          Only works in places like your living room with non conductive, non grounded surfaces though. EGC or no EGC with the branch circuit and an outdoor receptacle, garage, unfinished basement - and you still have plenty of shock hazard - and one of the principal reasons NEC has required GFCI protection in such locations for ~ 30 years or so. I believe either 1984 or 1987 is where they added most of what I just mentioned to the GFCI protection requirements.
          I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

          Comment


            Originally posted by kwired View Post
            Only works in places like your living room with non conductive, non grounded surfaces though.
            Correct. Get rid of the EGC and I am safe from almost any shock hazzard in my living room. And I would be safer still with a GFCI protected circuit, no?
            EGC or no EGC with the branch circuit and an outdoor receptacle, garage, unfinished basement - and you still have plenty of shock hazard - and one of the principal reasons NEC has required GFCI protection in such locations for ~ 30 years or so. I believe either 1984 or 1987 is where they added most of what I just mentioned to the GFCI protection requirements.
            I said that in not so many words.
            If Billy Idol is on your playlist go reevaluate your life.

            Comment


              Originally posted by user 100 View Post
              But as said in the other thread, people will just find a way round that and actually end up creating a more dangerous situation- if they dont have a cheater, then they will remove the ground pin (yes you arent allowed to plug in most 5-15ps into non egc gfcis anyway per 250.114, but thats beside the point), and will have eliminated any protection afforded by an egc if the mutilated appliance is ever moved to a non gfci 5-15 receptacle.
              the NEC kinda stops at the end of the ckt when it comes to wiring, from there you can write all the stupid things folks do, NEC cannot stop that.

              but lets start at the beginning, it's a 1- being replaced with a 5- gfi, so any notion of user creating more hazard is BS, they already had a 1- , etc.

              if i see a 5- from ~10ft away i assume it has EGC. most folks at that 1ft mark while inserting their 5-15p into the non-EGC 5-15r gfi are probably not paying attention to any sticker, let alone comprehending what it means. but, does using 5-p into non-EGC'd 5-r gfi create a hazard, possibly yes, because there are some scenarios where 1- just wont trip.

              ok, many things are 1-, so be it, but items that are 5-p should really have a EGC'd 5-r, and having EGC for that 5- gfi provides protections against more fault scenarios than the 1- can.

              so i think its ok to swap 1- with a 5- gfi, but the EGC hole should be plugged (instead of a sticker that nobody reads, wont understand, and will eventually fall off, or plate cover replaced in future), a barbed plastic pin would suffice, so once inserted it cannot be removed, thus converting the 5- gfi into a 1- gfi, etc.

              Comment


                Originally posted by FionaZuppa View Post
                bringing this back to life, its a good subject.
                No, we are not bringing this 'back to life'.

                As I asked you before Fiona, please start your own thread on the subject.

                Put your own thoughts together, explain the problem you see and the solution you have.

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