Pool Pump Gfci

[Dennis Alwon]

I wired a pool pump over a year ago and now the pool guys are telling me the GFCI is not holding. They said that these multi-speed motors are required by code because they save energy but they are problems with GFCI's. The manufacturer states a Siemens Breaker should be installed..... HAHAHA The breaker is a Siemens because that is what they told me when I installed it.

Now a year later they say the breakers get weakened over time and the gfci must be replaced. I called him and asked if he was going to pay and of course, he said no. So if this doesn't work the home owner will be angry and then what... No response. He says they have done this a hundred times and it always does the trick.

I have never heard of a gfci getting weaker but I have wondered about it. Is it possible? If that is the issue then these pool motor manufacturers need to get it together. We will have to change this every year- that's absurd.

I remember that Hayward pool pumps saying that they need Sq. D breakers.... How crazy is that market getting. I'll charge the home owner and I am certain he will pay me but.....

My friend has a multi-speed pump and that GE Gfci has been there for over 3 years.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

..................

 

[retirede]

It would be interesting to replace the breaker with non-GFCI and measure the leakage to ground through the motor.

 

[shortcircuit2]

On a job the other day there was a similar problem and the manufacturer said to put a equipment GFCI breaker on the pump. At a 30ma trip...this was not the solution I agreed to follow. Upon further reading of the instructions on this particular pump, the pump was required to be under cover from the elements. They changed the pump to one that was suitable for the environment and we kept the personal protection GFCI breaker on the circuit.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I guess what has me stump is the reponse from the mfgr that these multi-speed motors can weaken a gfci. I have not seen a weaken gfci. They either work or they don;t. I was wondering if it is possible to weaken the electronic just from pump use.

 

[kwired]

If it is tripping at pump startup it could be weakened magnetic trip components, which I think may be more possible then weakened electronics that drive the GFCI protection.

Next thing may be to meg the motor. Could just be some moisture build up in a place it doesn't belong, if so shouldn't matter which brand of GFCI you are using.

 

[vincentvigil]

Is the breaker sized at 250% according to 430.52? I would think inrush would be causing the breaker to trip because the breaker is too small.

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[kwired]

Is the breaker sized at 250% according to 430.52? I would think inrush would be causing the breaker to trip because the breaker is too small.

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250% is a maximum, with permission to go higher if 250 don't allow a motor to start.

150-200% is sufficient to start many motors in many circumstances, seen many only at 125-150% that do hold during starting.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

The pump has been running for over a year without issue. Now they are saying that all 3 gfci circuits in the panel have been tripping. Pool cover, pump, and 120v circuit for trany lights. I am going there Monday- we'll see what is going on.

 

[GoldDigger]

If you do not believe that all three circuits developed leaky loads at the same time, I guess it is more probable that something happened to the feeder neutral that also created a spurious ground to neutral bond upstream of the breakers.
Or all three have been leaking for a long time but there was no solid EGC connection to carry the leakage current.

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[Dennis Alwon]

If you do not believe that all three circuits developed leaky loads at the same time, I guess it is more probable that something happened to the feeder neutral that also created a spurious ground to neutral bond upstream of the breakers.
Or all three have been leaking for a long time but there was no solid EGC connection to carry the leakage current.

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I hope that is not true as my guys installed the feeder. That is what I am going to check out.

 

[ptonsparky]

I do not believe GFCIs need a solid EGC connection to work. All they need is a path. Ants, water, dew, flesh, etc.

 

[robertsledzaus80]

Pool pumps do not require GFI.... Right?

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[Dennis Alwon]

I do not believe GFCIs need a solid EGC connection to work. All they need is a path. Ants, water, dew, flesh, etc.

Gfci do not need an equipment grounding conductor to work

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Pool pumps do not require GFI.... Right?

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No
t correct. It has been many code cycles where swimming pool motors have been required to have gfci depending if they were 20 amps or less. Now all single phase pool motors need gfci protection

680.21(C) GFCI Protection. Outlets supplying pool pump motors
connected to single-phase, 120-volt through 240-volt branch
circuits, whether by receptacle or by direct connection, shall be
provided with ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for
personnel.

 

[GoldDigger]

Gfci do not need an equipment grounding conductor to work

But to the extent that there is no alternate grounding path there may not be enough current to trip a GFCI.
Admittedly that is far less likely when you also have an equipotential grid present, as with a pool.

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