European treadmills on 208v

[Guanac]

Hi, I got a call from the gym manager today telling me he is having problems with the treadmills. Apparently they are 220v connected at 208v. There are 6 treadmill, 2 of them have constant problems with the electronic board and have changed them a bunch of times, 1 of the has occasional problemas and the other 3 have worked fine. Initially I was thinking to just add a transformer for each of them, but the issue that concerns me, is why 3 machines work fine without any issues. Am I missing something?
Thanks!

 

[ramsy]

All the machines may eventually fail, once driven hard enough for long enough. Motors and other inductive loads draw more current to achieve the same nameplate wattage/power from a lower voltage source. More current = more heat, and IEC rated motors and definite-purpose relay components are not designed to survive beyond design limits of heat or amperage. Your 208v transformer secondary may have taps that allow a voltage adjustment increase, if doing so won't damage other equipment.

 

[mbrooke]

Assuming its not the L-L voltage doing it, raise the voltage to 230-240.

I agree with the comment above, IEC equipment tends to have very little tolerance built in.

 

[Guanac]

All the machines may eventually fail, once driven hard enough for long enough. Motors and other inductive loads draw more current to achieve the same nameplate wattage/power from a lower voltage source. More current = more heat, and IEC rated motors and definite-purpose relay components are not designed to survive beyond design limits of heat or amperage. Your 208v transformer secondary may have taps that allow a voltage adjustment increase, if doing so won't damage other equipment.

Thanks, I get that, but what if I tell you the equipment was installed less than 6months algo, and 2 of those started failing right away. You still believe I should just adjust the voltage?

 

[Jamesco]

Hi, I got a call from the gym manager today telling me he is having problems with the treadmills. Apparently they are 220v connected at 208v. There are 6 treadmill, 2 of them have constant problems with the electronic board and have changed them a bunch of times, 1 of the has occasional problemas and the other 3 have worked fine. Initially I was thinking to just add a transformer for each of them, but the issue that concerns me, is why 3 machines work fine without any issues. Am I missing something?
Thanks!

I was thinking to just add a transformer for each of them, but the issue that concerns me, is why 3 machines work fine without any issues. Am I missing something?
Thanks!

The 3 machines that work fine could be manufactured by a different manufacture, or the 3 could be a different model number, series.

Some treadmills use AC motors while others use DC motors. The ones that use DC motors are usually powered by a SMPS, Switch Mode Power Supply.
Depending on the design of the SMPS the AC power input voltage range can vary widely. The treadmills that are failing could have a tighter AC input voltage range.

I agree you should boost the 208V to 220V for all 6 treadmills.

 

[Tony S]

EU equipment has a fairly wide operating range to cope with the so called “unified” declared voltage of 230V +10% -6%. The UK and Germany being at the +10% end, Belgium at -6%. 208V is out of the range. What also may be the problem is 208V is Ph→Ph. 230V Ph→N. As it’s the control PCB failing I’d go for a problem with the neutral.

I’ve had this voltage problem before when we imported machinery from Belgium. The manufacturers wouldn’t guarantee the gear unless we supplied the correct voltage. We ended up with one side of the factory on 380V the other side on 433V.

 

[Besoeker]

Assuming its not the L-L voltage doing it, raise the voltage to 230-240.

I agree with the comment above, IEC equipment tends to have very little tolerance built in.

Got a source for that?
Please understand that I'm not saying you are incorrect just that It's something that I hadn't heard/read.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I find it hard to believe that a 220v unit will have trouble running on a 208V system. The boards should not have an issue with that small voltage difference

 

[Besoeker]

I find it hard to believe that a 220v unit will have trouble running on a 208V system. The boards should not have an issue with that small voltage difference

The "harmonised" voltage is 230V, not 220V.
But you have a point.

 

[petersonra]

IEC style equipment tends to have more purpose built design but I have not seen all that much difference in failure rates when applied properly.

I'd be inclined to get a transformer and get the voltage upto the "right" level. I don't know if it being L-L versus L-N matters any but it would not hurt any to make the 230 grounded when doing this just to eliminate that as an issue. Presumably they are rated for 50-60 Hz?

It might be that they just bought junk too.

 

[junkhound]

Hi, I got a call from the gym manager today telling me he is having problems with the treadmills. Apparently they are 220v connected at 208v. There are 6 treadmill, 2 of them have constant problems with the electronic board and have changed them a bunch of times, 1 of the has occasional problemas and the other 3 have worked fine. Initially I was thinking to just add a transformer for each of them, but the issue that concerns me, is why 3 machines work fine without any issues. Am I missing something?
Thanks!

A photo of a nameplate would help those damiliar with IEC identify problems.

 

[petersonra]

Hi, I got a call from the gym manager today telling me he is having problems with the treadmills. Apparently they are 220v connected at 208v. There are 6 treadmill, 2 of them have constant problems with the electronic board and have changed them a bunch of times, 1 of the has occasional problemas and the other 3 have worked fine. Initially I was thinking to just add a transformer for each of them, but the issue that concerns me, is why 3 machines work fine without any issues. Am I missing something?
Thanks!

Just who has changed what?

Are these under warranty or did they buy some used stuff of unknown provenance.

 

[Jamesco]

I find it hard to believe that a 220v unit will have trouble running on a 208V system. The boards should not have an issue with that small voltage difference

Good chance the board is the DC power supply for the belt motor. Not just for the DC power to operate the user display panel.

 

[Jamesco]

EU equipment has a fairly wide operating range to cope with the so called “unified” declared voltage of 230V +10% -6%. The UK and Germany being at the +10% end, Belgium at -6%. 208V is out of the range. What also may be the problem is 208V is Ph→Ph. 230V Ph→N. As it’s the control PCB failing I’d go for a problem with the neutral.

I’ve had this voltage problem before when we imported machinery from Belgium. The manufacturers wouldn’t guarantee the gear unless we supplied the correct voltage. We ended up with one side of the factory on 380V the other side on 433V.

What also may be the problem is 208V is Ph→Ph. 230V Ph→N. As it’s the control PCB failing I’d go for a problem with the neutral.

Good point.

It may also void the safety Listing for the equipment.

 

[Tony S]

It may also void the safety Listing for the equipment.

Every chance.

As I said earlier the Belgians wouldn’t guarantee equipment operated at the wrong voltage. A transformer to give 230V Ph→N is the only way I can see to get out of this situation.

 

[Besoeker]

Not enough information.
It could be a voltage problem, a frequency problem, or a combination of both. Lower voltage and higher frequency....................hm.

This seems to be a recurring issue here. Foreign imports intended for a different supply system.

 

[Guanac]

Just who has changed what?

Are these under warranty or did they buy some used stuff of unknown provenance.

Local supplier has changed them. They say is the voltage and that it is not covered by warranty. They don’t seem to know what’s going eather. I’ll try to get a picture of the nameplate.

I’ll try to get a picture of the nameplate.
Supplier also a says they have installed them on a single phase, 240v systems without any problems. Wouldn’t that rule out the neutral problem?

 

[AdrianWint]

A couple of 'concerns' if the equipment is designed for a UK supply:

1). Double pole switching/fusing : If the design is intended for use on our 230V Ph-N supply where the N is accepted to be maintained at ground potential, it may incorporate only single pole switching & fusing (in the 'hot' line only). This may not be compatible when operated at 208V (ie. hot-hot) in the US where double pole switching & fusing would be needed.

2). Filters on the front end - if the front end of the integral PSU incorporates a delta filter network connected between Hot, N & E that filter will be assuming that N & E are at the same potential. When operated on a 208V L-L system that relationship no longer holds & each leg is 120V from earth.

As others have stated, our UK voltage is 230V +10%, -6% (although its due to move to -10%). Giving a absolute min design voltage of 207V. I understand that the tolerance on the 208V in the US is -13% at the point of utilisation... so a design expecting a 'nominal' 230V would still be expected to work at 181V... that's a big ask!

Are these 'Tunturi' treadmills by any chance??

 

[Tony S]

Supplier also a says they have installed them on a single phase, 240v systems without any problems. Wouldn’t that rule out the neutral problem?

I don’t think it would solve the problem. The machine is designed for a Ph→N system, if the control board is looking for an earthed (grounded) reference it isn’t going to find it.

I don’t think you can escape from installing a transformer.

At the end of the day you have to reconcile the cost of the replacement boards and loss of income from the machines against the cost of a transformer. Sorry to say, the ball is in your court.

 

[Besoeker]

A couple of 'concerns' if the equipment is designed for a UK supply:

1). Double pole switching/fusing : If the design is intended for use on our 230V Ph-N supply where the N is accepted to be maintained at ground potential, it may incorporate only single pole switching & fusing (in the 'hot' line only). This may not be compatible when operated at 208V (ie. hot-hot) in the US where double pole switching & fusing would be needed.

2). Filters on the front end - if the front end of the integral PSU incorporates a delta filter network connected between Hot, N & E that filter will be assuming that N & E are at the same potential. When operated on a 208V L-L system that relationship no longer holds & each leg is 120V from earth.

As others have stated, our UK voltage is 230V +10%, -6% (although its due to move to -10%). Giving a absolute min design voltage of 207V. I understand that the tolerance on the 208V in the US is -13% at the point of utilisation... so a design expecting a 'nominal' 230V would still be expected to work at 181V... that's a big ask!

Are these 'Tunturi' treadmills by any chance??

And then there is the frequency difference to consider.
Midlands UK - are you a Brummie?