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occupancy switch says neutral not needed

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    #16
    the one that said slip a white over the green and connect it to neutral?? should work, but let us know...
    Student of electrical codes. Please Take others advice first.

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      #17
      I looked at the actual user manual, not the installation guide, and it is UL listed.
      http://www.lutron.com/TechnicalDocum...ary/369488.pdf

      The capacitive power supply would be just to power up the logic, a few milliwatts of power. Once the logic is alive and it commands the unit to switch the load on, it likely has an inductive coupler or a little CT to parasitically provide any added power needed via the current flowing through it. No laws of physics need be violated. This type of technology for powering microchip based devices has been around for decades, it's nothing new. You just likely didn't know it was happening in some of the stuff you have used. The little neon bulbs used in lighted toggle switches have worked on a similar principal for years; there has never been a neutral needed for those.
      __________________________________________________ ____________________________
      Many people are shocked when they discover I am not a good electrician...

      I'm in California, ergo I am still stuck on the 2014 NEC... We'll get around to the 2017 code in around 2021.

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        #18
        The previous UL standard permitted the EGC to be used for a grounded conductor for the power to the electronics in a switch like that. Both the standard and the code prohibit that effective 1/1/2020.
        404.22 Electronic Lighting Control Switches
        Electronic lighting control switches shall be listed. Electronic lighting control switches shall not introduce current on the equipment grounding
        conductor during normal operation. The requirement to not introduce current on the equipment grounding conductor shall take effect on January 1, 2020.
        Don, Illinois
        (All code citations are 2017 unless otherwise noted)

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          #19
          Originally posted by Jraef View Post
          I looked at the actual user manual, not the installation guide, and it is UL listed.
          http://www.lutron.com/TechnicalDocum...ary/369488.pdf

          The capacitive power supply would be just to power up the logic, a few milliwatts of power. Once the logic is alive and it commands the unit to switch the load on, it likely has an inductive coupler or a little CT to parasitically provide any added power needed via the current flowing through it. No laws of physics need be violated. This type of technology for powering microchip based devices has been around for decades, it's nothing new. You just likely didn't know it was happening in some of the stuff you have used. The little neon bulbs used in lighted toggle switches have worked on a similar principal for years; there has never been a neutral needed for those.
          My first thought when I saw lighted toggle was those that have the light across the contacts and the light is in series with the load when switch is open and had me scratching my head on what you were saying, but then got to wondering if you weren't talking about a switch with light that indicates the load is "on". Never seen one that didn't require a neutral connection, but I guess it is possible.
          I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

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            #20
            I have seen a few of these electronic devices that use the equipment grounding conductor as a neutral. I assume at some point they will disappear from stock.
            They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy
            She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me
            I can't help it if I'm lucky

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              #21
              The lighted toggle switches were a neon light (NE-2 typically) and resistor in series with the switch contacts. When the switch was open, room light off, the little neon bulb was lit, so you could find the switch. Turn on the switch, room light is on, no need for the "night light" function to be on. No neutral needed, no fancy micro electronics were harmed in the process.

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                #22
                Originally posted by Dennis Alwon View Post
                I have seen a few of these electronic devices that use the equipment grounding conductor as a neutral. I assume at some point they will disappear from stock.
                I don't know - maybe not. I'm still seeing 2-prong receptacles in the stores.

                I'd guess that, "electronic devices that use the equipment grounding conductor as a neutral" will be available until the houses built before 2008 code are gone.
                Without data you’re just another person with an opinion – Edwards Deming

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                  #23
                  Originally posted by iceworm View Post
                  I'd guess that, "electronic devices that use the equipment grounding conductor as a neutral" will be available until the houses built before 2008 code are gone.
                  I'm going to try connecting the green wire (which appears to go to the PCB within) to a neutral, and the bare wire (which appears to be connected directly to the yoke) to ground, and see if it still works. A quick call to Lutron tech support says I can't do this, but I'm not sure the guy was that knowledgeable.
                  Last edited by RustyShackleford; 11-07-18, 02:41 PM.

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                    #24
                    Originally posted by Frank DuVal View Post
                    The lighted toggle switches were a neon light (NE-2 typically) and resistor in series with the switch contacts. When the switch was open, room light off, the little neon bulb was lit, so you could find the switch. Turn on the switch, room light is on, no need for the "night light" function to be on. No neutral needed, no fancy micro electronics were harmed in the process.
                    Parallel with the contacts, not series.

                    The NE-2 is in series with the resistor and that assembly I’d parrelled with the switch.

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                      #25
                      Originally posted by retirede View Post
                      Parallel with the contacts, not series.

                      The NE-2 is in series with the resistor and that assembly is parrelled with the switch.
                      Like this: (The ground is not connected to the light, you have to look close to see that)

                      Cheers and Stay Safe,

                      Marky the Sparky

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                        #26
                        The NE-2/resistor is in parallel with the switch, which places it in series with the load when the switch is off.
                        Master Electrician
                        Electrical Contractor
                        Richmond, VA

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                          #27
                          Originally posted by RustyShackleford View Post
                          I'm going to try connecting the green wire (which appears to go to the PCB within) to a neutral, and the bare wire (which appears to be connected directly to the yoke) to ground, and see if it still works.
                          i did this, and of course it works fine. Note: this is not for-hire work, nor is it within a dwelling.

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