Experiments

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LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
What I'm trying to find out is whether "stealing" electricity form a power line by induction actually costs the POCO anything directly, or is their point of view merely that we shouldn't be allowed to benefit by using the waste they experience anyway?

If leaky pipes are an acceptable part of the water-delivery system anyway, should the water company be able to sue someone who catches the dripping that's headed for the ground in a bucket and uses it for their own use?

If the POCO doesn't want me to collect any of their electromagnetic radiation, then they should be required to keep it out of my back yard. If someone tells a secret loud enough for me to hear, is it my fault for hearing it?

Why blame the radio-signal receiver (person or equipment) for picking up a signal they don't want anyone to hear? Doesn't the transmitter (person or equipment) have any responsibility in keeping their signal contained?
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
190105-1550 EST

LarryFine:

What I'm trying to find out is whether "stealing" electricity form a power line by induction actually costs the POCO anything directly, or is their point of view merely that we shouldn't be allowed to benefit by using the waste they experience anyway?
Yes. Until you load the magnetic field with your coil and resistor the power company has not lost any energy.

The power company distribution lines do not leak average real power (resistive component) from their magnetic field. On a full cycle basis the energy put into the magnetic field is put back into the power lines. No net outflow of energy when averaged over one full cycle.

When you put a coil, with a resistive load on the coil, in proximity to the power lines, then thru the magnetic field coupling between the coil and the power lines a net average flow of real power occurs from the power lines to the resistor attached to the coil. Thus, an energy loss to the power company.

If leaky pipes are an acceptable part of the water-delivery system anyway, should the water company be able to sue someone who catches the dripping that's headed for the ground in a bucket and uses it for their own use?
Your dripping water is not a valid analogy.

If the POCO doesn't want me to collect any of their electromagnetic radiation, then they should be required to keep it out of my back yard. If someone tells a secret loud enough for me to hear, is it my fault for hearing it?
Electromagnetic or sound radiation and near field magnetic coupling are two different things. When you put your coil in close proximity to the power company wires you have made a connection to their wires. Radiation whether electromagnetic or sound is energy sent out into space as waves of energy not to return to the source. Near field magnetic fields are not radiation.

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FionaZuppa

Senior Member
Location
AZ
Occupation
Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
190105-1550 EST

LarryFine:

Yes. Until you load the magnetic field with your coil and resistor the power company has not lost any energy.

The power company distribution lines do not leak average real power (resistive component) from their magnetic field. On a full cycle basis the energy put into the magnetic field is put back into the power lines. No net outflow of energy when averaged over one full cycle.
Ah, but they do. The metal structures/towers/pylons that hold up power lines do in fact couple and eddy currents will form in the towers, these currents will heat the structure, thereby that is real wasted power. If the towers were say big/heavy/hard plastic then there would not be wasted power in the structure. I bet ya that the impedance the source sees changes depending on tower type/design and how many there are.

Perhaps the power lines should be wrapped in mu metal ;):lol:

I dont like the leaking water example, in that case its always leaking, and you taking it makes no diff to the source. With power lines, if you purposely couple to their magnetic field and place a power load on the coupling, then you are impacting their source.

Now, I am 100% for telling poco to keep their shiat out of my backyard, whether it be their trucks, poles, or their magnetic fields.:thumbsup:
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
190105-1937 EST

FionaZuppa:

You are correct, and I did not mention that because it only confuses the issue. By putting another coil and load in the power line feed area does not really have much effect on the other losses. The new coil and resistor are not replacing other losses, but are adding losses to the system.

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gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
190105-2038 EST

I want to know where are the power distribution lines from which I am supposed to harvest any substantial amount of power?

Ar my home the flux level at earth, about 20 ft below a 3 phase delta, the flux level may read as high as 40/20,000 = 2/1000 gauss, 2 milligauss. That is 40 microvolts from a coil of probably a 1000 turns or more. Coil diameter is hard to estimate, but OD is less than 1.3". Some of the reading can be high frequency noise. Coil output voltage is K*N*df/dt.

At 60 Hz the coil calibration is 20 mV/gauss.

I need to take some measurements near HV lines.

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Eddie_T

Member
Location
Southern mtns near eastern continental divide
Occupation
PE (retired)
190105-1233 EST

Eddie_T:

You list yourself as an electrical engineer. So in basic terms thing about your comment of the last post.

Does a pure capacitor dissipate energy as heat? If I add series or parallel resistance to a pure capacitor does that resistance dissipate energy as heat? What does a fluorescent bulb electrically appear as when placed in a large gradient AC electric field? Does the AC electric field between electric power lines and ground dissipate much energy as heat?
All energy dies a heat death, but some is hard to measure. Would the farmer's cattle absorb more or less energy than the ionization of mercury vapor in the tube?

If everyone turns on a radio at the same time will there be a current spike at the transmitter power supply?
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
190105-2112 EST

Does anyone have instruments that they can use to provide other data? Do any of you think about or do much experimenting?

I was doing some random meaasurements and looked at a vertical pole in the basement, sensor in contact with the pole, and read about 1 mV, 1/20 gauss. This and other round steel posts support an I-beam, total length about 50 ft. All posts are welded to the I beam. But all posts don't show as high a flux level. Why current on the posts, and is it 60 Hz? Did not see as much from the I-beam, but it is a different shape, I vs O.

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gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
190105-2134 EST

Eddie_T:

If everyone turns on a radio at the same time will there be a current spike at the transmitter power supply?
No.

A radio transmitter or the sun is a one way energy emitter. Further electromagbetic radiation travels at about 186,000 miles per second.

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Last edited:

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
Ah, but they do. The metal structures/towers/pylons that hold up power lines do in fact couple and eddy currents will form in the towers, these currents will heat the structure, thereby that is real wasted power. If the towers were say big/heavy/hard plastic then there would not be wasted power in the structure. I bet ya that the impedance the source sees changes depending on tower type/design and how many there are.

OK, but when you hang your coil to get power from that field, you are adding to the losses you mention, not using what is already lost.
 

Tony S

Senior Member
Many moons ago there was a house in Stockport Cheshire UK where the power would go off at 23:45 and not come back on until 04:45. Its supply was from the town council’s 650V DC tram system.

Another incident I found out about while on a training course with the local DNO (PoCo). A former cable jointer in their employ had opened two electrical retail showrooms and had tapped in to the LV network. The DNO had to dig the street up to find out how he’d done it.
 

FionaZuppa

Senior Member
Location
AZ
Occupation
Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
All energy dies a heat death, but some is hard to measure. Would the farmer's cattle absorb more or less energy than the ionization of mercury vapor in the tube?

If everyone turns on a radio at the same time will there be a current spike at the transmitter power supply?
Heat is energy. Perhaps a better way is to say almost all work is turned into heat energy. Energy never dies ;)
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
190104-1100 EST

Sahib:

I don't have 100 million dollars. Somethings take a lot of money to do.

Could I make a very simple integrated circuit in my basement? Possibly. Would I? No.

.
What Henry Ford had that you don't have is many things didn't exist then that he found ways to make or at least improve. What you have to possibly discover or improve is more complicated than many of the things he worked on and likely will take more overhead to be able to do so.



My question is whether the energy consumed is additional energy taken from the line or a reduction in the energy otherwise lost.
If you powered the lamp you used some energy, as been mentioned a true capacitor won't have any energy lost, but there isn't really any pure capacitors and some energy is always being lost, your one little tube in system that is distributing Megawatts+ is still a loss of energy from it's intended target of use, but is also pretty insignificant of a loss when looking at the capacity of the system. They will still want to charge you with theft of service though if you are caught trying to use this, if you are just out there playing with a tube for amusement purposes they may be more lenient.

but, when you lit it up, was it with chargeable power or waste power? that is the question... I mean, a water company has a leak for a long time, and does nothing to find it. Farmer has no idea it is feeding his pond that he waters his corn from, just knows that he has no problem for a few years with his pond drying up.
Is the farmer responsible for the water that the water company lost by not fixing the leaks in their pipes?

Or, taken another way, you capture rainwater from the storms as much as possible, using it on your property. But, by doing so, some rainwater does not make it into the local rivers and streams, so is not able to be captured by the water company to supply their customers. Are you stealing from them?

I mean, some people have been suing the government claiming solar panels are stealing the suns rays and cause the sun to die..
Diverting rainwater is a big deal and is illegal in some places, to a ridiculous extent if you ask me. Supposedly you can't divert rainwater off your roof in some places as that impacts how much flows into rivers and streams - which others have claimed the right to that water... long story after this.

Let me ask it a different way, using a real load, not fluorescent:

If I string 100 feet of wire below a transmission line and wire it to a light bulb in my shed, and the bulb lights up, I'm clearly using real electricity that I'm not paying for.

But, when I am using the light, does the transmission line current increase by the amount of my usage, or does the current leaking into the earth decrease by my usage?

In other words, does my interception of a dripping water leak increase the flow of water in the pipe, or merely decrease the amount of water soaking into the ground?
If you added a conventional transformer and connect it to your shed, don't you essentially do the same thing, take energy from that line and utilize it in the shed?

What I'm trying to find out is whether "stealing" electricity form a power line by induction actually costs the POCO anything directly, or is their point of view merely that we shouldn't be allowed to benefit by using the waste they experience anyway?

If leaky pipes are an acceptable part of the water-delivery system anyway, should the water company be able to sue someone who catches the dripping that's headed for the ground in a bucket and uses it for their own use?

If the POCO doesn't want me to collect any of their electromagnetic radiation, then they should be required to keep it out of my back yard. If someone tells a secret loud enough for me to hear, is it my fault for hearing it?

Why blame the radio-signal receiver (person or equipment) for picking up a signal they don't want anyone to hear? Doesn't the transmitter (person or equipment) have any responsibility in keeping their signal contained?

IMO, which may be different from the law, if you set up whatever you are collecting said energy with on your own property, you should be able to collect whatever you can. If you set up equipment on the right of way of said line then at very least you are trespassing. If the line is on your property and line operator has an easement to place the line on your property that gets more complicated.

Back in the older satellite TV days when they used to occasionally charge people for theft of service when they obtained "descrambling codes" to get free TV - IMO they needed to go after those selling/distributing the codes, that is what was illegal. If they were going to bounce a radio signal off your roof IMO you have the right to do whatever you want with that signal, and if you can figure out how to use it so what? Same goes for acquiring electric power, if the line is close enough to your property that you can collect energy without going onto their right of way, so be it.
 

SG-1

Senior Member
190102-0919 EST

On the subject of experiments.

I do experiments in all sorts of places. Such as: living room, kitchen, bedroom, pantry, garage, basement, backyard, out in the country, at the shop, and anywhere that is useful. Not just in a laboratory.

The pantry is a very constant temperature low air flow rate location. The kitchen provides water, heat, cold, and table space. Also natural gas, but I have no active ports in the house. So propane gets used for these needs.

The garage provides freezer space, table space, hot and cold temperature chamber. Haven't had a car in the garage for 30 or more years. At one time my machine shop was in the garage.

The living room is good for taking pictures, and doing miscellaneous experiments.

The bedroom is radio communication, and RFI experiments.

The basement is...


.

I mostly use an old guest room as a lab. This year I plan to replicate some of the Ah-Ha moments in electricity. First up is Faradays ice pail experiment.

This past week a flask type electro-scope was built, then an electronic version. The electronic version is only good for positive charge indication until some p-channel JFETS arrive. The electronic version is much more sensitive in my tests so far. Still need to find some small metal balls, just using balled up tin foil for now. Maybe some cabinet knobs ??

Next the Van De Graaff generator has to be modified to operate in a high humidity environment, aka the southern United States. Maybe, just maybe I can learn a little bit about electro-static induction, aka capacitive coupling.


Then on to building a working replica of the first motor. Just need to acquire some silver water,mercury for this one. Inventing the first motor actually got Faraday in trouble with his boss, who removed him from research in electricity for several years.


Occasionally something strange rears it's ugly heady at work & I will try to replicate it.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
If they were going to bounce a radio signal off your roof IMO you have the right to do whatever you want with that signal, and if you can figure out how to use it so what? Same goes for acquiring electric power, if the line is close enough to your property that you can collect energy without going onto their right of way, so be it.

It's not the same thing. Descrambling a radio signal hitting your property doesn't diminish the total amount of signal out there. Setting up a coil to harvest energy from overhead lines does subtract from the energy available from them. The amount of loss to the lines is very small, that's true, but it is there.
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
190106-1621 EST

I thought I asked the following question, but I can't find it. I did find that I make a lot of mistakes in words or spelling that I don't see how I could not have spotted them originally.

The question is:

Have anyone of you ever taken a fluorescent bulb out under a three phase 345 kilovolt line and observed the bulb light? If so in what orientation, and did the way the bulb was held affect brightness? And was it of normal brightness?

Same power line but with a coil or single loop loaded and unloaded?

Then if you can find a single phase distribution line is it any different? Not likely to be 345 kV.

Then what if you can find a one wire distribution system with earth return?

.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
It's not the same thing. Descrambling a radio signal hitting your property doesn't diminish the total amount of signal out there. Setting up a coil to harvest energy from overhead lines does subtract from the energy available from them. The amount of loss to the lines is very small, that's true, but it is there.
Taking energy vs intercepting a part of a communication signal are is what is not the same thing. I don't know enough about radios, but technically you probably are harvesting a small amount of energy in some way when you collect that signal, but that was energy was going to be there anyway, it didn't put additional load in any way on the source transmitting the wave.

My feelings are that if you can capture a signal that is sent right at you and figure out how to decipher what information it is carrying - that shouldn't be illegal. The sender needs to find better security methods encoded into the signal if they want less people to be able to decipher the sent information.

And IMO same goes for the transmission line. If you own the line and don't want anybody coupling onto the magnetic fields from their own private property, you better make sure there is no significant enough fields outside any right of way of your lines that can be used by others. Isn't this only an issue with over 100kV lines for the most part anyway? And even with those you still aren't going to get that high of a power level too easily. Might still be cheaper to go to Wal Mart and buy some cheap solar powered landscape lights then it will cost to get any significant power from this method?
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
190106-2351 EST

SG-1:

You should be able to make an electostatic generator with an insulated copper ring supported on a ring stand with an eye drop dropper tip fed from a beaker of water to drip drops of water thru the conductive ring. The conductive ring needs to connect to an appropriate spark gap. The voltage of the ring is relative to the ring stand.

An old professor of mine, A. D. Moore, gave a nice demonstration of this generator one night when he gave a talk on electrostatics.

I have used an automotive ignition coil in a controlled experiment to measure relative energy to the gap to compare ignition systems.

I can remember in my young years having access to a rotating static generator and spark gap. We would crank this and produce sparks. I don't remember the location. Physics lab possibly, Menlo Park unlikely, science lab possibly, that is where we had a pair of acoustic parabolic reflectors, and more likely it was the Museum.

One can experiment with a glass pan of water, an electrode at each end, some lemon juice or salt in the water, low voltage AC to the electrodes, connect one high impedance DVM lead to one electrode, then use the other meter probe to map the voltage points in the water.

Another interesting experiment is with conductive water in an insulated baking pan, a DC supply, two test tubes filled with the water, then the tubes inverted in the pan of water to be vertical, initially in the inverted position the tubes are full, need a means to hold them, insert leads from the DC source into the test tubes, use insulated wire, and only expose a portion, possibly an inch of copper inside the tube, and apply DC current current.

Bubbles will appear and gradually gas will develop above the water in the tubes. One gas will grow twice as tall as the other. Hydrogen is one gas and the other is oxygen. Which is which? This demonstrates the disassociation of water into its two atomic components.

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gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
190105-2434 EST

When energy is radiated from the sun, a hot bar of metal, an incandescent bulb, or a radio antenna that energy leaves the source and goes into free space never to return to its source.

An inductive field or an electric field alone does not radiate energy out into space not to return. It is simply an altered field in proximity to the source that remains associated with the source. Energy put into the field can return to the source, or some of the energy can be intercepted and removed. But this is a near field event.

Radiation once set into motion can travel thru space over extreme distances.

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GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
190106-2351 EST
I can remember in my young years having access to a rotating static generator and spark gap.
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Sounds like a Wimhurst machine. I almost built one in high school to complement my van de graaff generator.

SG-1: Just how would you modify a van de graaff to work in a high humidity environment (other than putting it in an air conditioned/dehumidified/purged box?
 
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